To say the least about M.A. Hegde is that he is currently the Chairperson of Karnataka Yakshagana Academy. A scholar of eminence, M.A. Hegde is among the few people in the state who can speak authoritatively on language, literature and philosophy, apart from Yakshagana and Talamaddale. Having seen the traditional scholarship of Pandits, and the modern scholarship of university professors, Hegde has remained a bridge between the two, representing the best from both. Unlike most other Sanskrit scholars, Hegde is curious and open to all that is written by other Indian and Western scholars writing in English. In fact, his translation of Bimal Krishna Matilal’s “The Word and the World” (Shabda Mattu Jagattu ) is testament. M.A. Hegde is also a crucial link between the Yakshagana and Talamaddale worlds which more often than not remain insulated from each other. His enthusiasm towards learners, however new and raw they are, is also a rare gesture from a scholar of his stature. In a conversation about his multifarious journey, you encounter his deep commitment towards the various streams of knowledge, his love and respect for his teachers and mentors, and his ability to remain truly plural, above all divides.
You have had a very long association with Shambhu Hegde, one of the greatest Yakshagana artistes. How did you come in contact with him? His scholarship, wide reading and thinking must have made a big impact on you.
My association with this art form started fairly early, when I was a young boy. Shambhu Hegde came into my life later. In all villages of Malnad, and in nearly every Havyaka home, invariably there is the percussion instrument maddale, and a set of cymbals. My home in Dantagallu, Siddapur taluk, was no different. Every evening, people sat down to sing a few verses. My maternal uncle, Ganapathi Hegde, known as Dantagallu Patelaru was a talamaddale artiste. I, a little boy then, trailed him like a shadow. There were times when he would shout at me and ask me to stay put at home, but I followed him. Soon he realised that I had some potential. One day he said, ‘come on, you render the artha now’ (artha is meaning in Kannada, but in the Yakshagana-Talamaddale context artha embodies dhvani , which is suggestion. So, all arthadaris render meaning or, are interpreters of the possible meanings of a text). He was perhaps pleased, and from then on took me to play minor characters whenever he saw an opportunity. He also felt that learning how to dance would help, and got me trained. When I was in class eight, a Yakshagana training workshop was organised in Basavanakodlu, seven miles away from my school in Heggarini. I would finish morning classes on Saturday and rush off to the camp to return to school on Monday morning. During vacation, I stayed there for a whole month. Teachers at the workshop were Shambhu Hegde and Nebbur Narayan Hegde. This was my first meeting with these two stalwarts.
Around the same time, my uncle along with Keremane Venkatachala Bhat and others started a Bayalata troupe. Around 20 young boys along with some senior artistes were part of the group; I too was part of the group and played quite a few roles. Shambhu Hegde developed a fondness for me. He asked me to join the Idagunji mela, and gave me the role of Rajaka in the very first Yakshagana with him, Kamsa Vadhe . His father Shivarama Hegde, an unparalleled legend, played Kamsa. I got to perform in Chandrahasa Charitre, Babruvahana … When Shambhu Hegde went to Delhi to study choreography, the Keremane trio – Shivarama Hegde, Mahabala Hegde, and Gajanana Hegde -- travelled to Mumbai, Nasik and other places. I got an opportunity to travel with them. It was a remarkable experience, imagine that you perform with three of the greatest Yakshagana artistes! All of them were very dear to me, but I was closest to Shambhu Hegde – he has had a great influence on me.
You have come into contact with many great personalities. As you occupy this position as the Chairman of Yakshagana Academy, who are the people you remember? What kind of influence did they have on you?
As I said earlier, Shambhu Hegde was immensely fond of me, and I held him in the highest esteem. He would discuss a lot about Yakshagana, and when everyone else would be asleep, I was the only one who would stay up till 3 a.m. nodding diligently and absorbing every word he said. He valued my seriousness. Mahabala Hegde was equally intense, and always had a valuable suggestion to make. He was extremely well read in literature and was close to Shivarama Karanth. He cleared all my confusions and made me realize the worth of what Shivaram Karanth was doing. He gave character to my thinking. In terms of abhinaya , Shivarama Hegde has no match: his eyes were like a 200 watt bulb, they could say everything. He was awe-inspiring, however, I would greet him but could never go close to him. In fact, Aa. Na. Krishna Rao saw him play Duryodhana in Gadha Parva and declared that he is among the greatest artistes of this country, and was instrumental in the national award being conferred on him. Kinneeru Narayana Hegde was a great maddale player who I admired.
What about artistes from Dakshina Kannada?
Gopalkrishna Sheni was a star. He could talk the whole day intensely about tala maddale, the various interpretations of a character etc… you find that his performance for that evening would get shaped during these conversations! He is a very big force in my life. Similarly, Perle Krishna Bhattaru, Tekkatte Anand Master too, though I cannot say distinctly what exactly was their contribution. The Dakshina Kannada tala maddale artistes have played a significant role in my life.
Just as you have been a dedicated student of Yakshagana and Talamaddale, you are equally interested in Sanskrit, philosophy, and literature.
I never wanted to make Yakshagana my profession. I was good in studies, and worked very hard. I had phenomenal teachers as well. Most importantly, B.H. Shridhar. He was a wonder, an encyclopedia. There was nothing that he had not read! My interest in Sanskrit was fuelled by him. Similarly, Dr. K. Krishnamurthy, a great scholar from the Pandit tradition whose extraordinary excellence in Kannada, English and Sanskrit was inspiring. So many of my teachers I have to remember – D.M. Shanbhag, B.R. Modak, Nandimath… The good thing is I did not stop studying after I completed my M.A. in Sanskrit. I studied extensively, about everything. With my interest in Yakshagana I even started writing.
Something interesting happened. At home, there was a palmleaf manuscript which was taken out during the Navaratri festival, it was worshipped and put back in the attic. Out of curiosity, I once started reading it. My interest developed. I started researching, collecting and studying palmleaf and written manuscripts of Yakshagana. Hosthota Manjunath Bhagvataru, found the first Yakshagana script, Adi Parva . He read it, and wanted to share it with me. I not only read it, made a hand written copy and wrote a long introduction speaking of its importance. You will be surprised that what has now come to constitute a standard Yakshagana script today, is not just the case with this ancient one. Apart from these technical differences, he writes the Adi Parva entirely in his own style, without borrowing from the Kumaravyasa Bharatha . It is only in the second part of the work that there are a couple of references to Kumaravyasa Bharatha . I have done a lot of research on manuscripts. I think I have done work in all aspects of Yakshagana-Talamaddale, however, I am neither a great Talamaddale orator nor an extraordinary Yakshagana dancer. I am deeply passionate about these forms and remain a meticulous student.
The history of Yakhagana is traced to 15-16th centuries. However, it remains obscure till the 19th century. In the 20th century, this art form rose to great heights. What came first, Yakshagana or Talamaddale? Scholars are divided about Talamaddale, some say it has no angika and is therefore limited. While others say it is an intellectual activity and hence restricted. What is your view?
It is difficult to say what came first. But it is indeed an intellectual exercise. If you have no entry into the various knowledge systems, you will fail to understand Talamaddale. But ask me, and I will tell you that it is the greatest art form in this world. According to Natyashastra, through aharya we conceal the person’s identity. However, even with this concealment you may not become the character. Talamaddale has no place for aharya, but if you say you are Bhishma, your audience believes that you are him. Even with a big, fat moustache if you tell them you are Draupadi, they will rest their faith in you. The form breaks all artistic dogmas: and, with the ability to read, interpret and narrate, you can construct a whole new text. Is there any other – that is so deep, so distinct? None. Thinking or analysis is a matter of training, and a talamaddale artiste has to be proficient in many subjects. Through his character analysis, he blends past and present, he travels effortlessly between time zones. It is amazing how a 15th century poem gets a contemporary interpretation. To carry forward the centrality of his argument, he collapses many time periods into one. Even a ‘rogue’, a ‘villain’ gets an opportunity to present his version, and he gets a fair hearing. This is an art form that elevates human understanding. It makes you empathetic. Talamaddale keeps the spirit of plurality, that is its strength.
We define classics as texts that stand the test of time, and that which capture multiple shades of human complexity. Every text of Talamaddale is then a classic.
Yes, absolutely. We have to bring this form to centrestage. People need to know and then it may become more popular than Yakshagana.
There are three aspects to Talamaddale. First, is the performance plot. Second, is the music. Third, is interpretation. Maatu or interpretation is its soul. In the last 200 years, what has the journey of ‘maatu’ been? Do you see the danger of it bordering on word play, many times losing its rich intertextuality?
True, it has come through many phases. When I was a child, it was a mere extension of Yakshagana. Fortunately, the Pandits saw the potential of this art form, and expanded its scope. It has changed from time to time. Sheni was among those who took the form to its greatest heights. It used to last for an entire night earlier, but now it is more compact. It lasts for about three to 3.5 hours. It is more artistic, and profound now. There are remarkable scholars like Umakant Bhatt whose speech itself is kavya, poetry. It is loaded with insights. You also have artistes like Vasudev Ranga Bhatt and others. Of course, the dangers that you see, also exists.
What about Jabbar Samo?
He is extremely good. He maybe a Muslim, but he is not even the first Muslim to enter this space. There was Mohammed Ghouse and others. There was Christian Babu who was a top class artiste. This is an open space and all are welcome.
It is not even true that only Hindu epics are chosen. There is an old script called Yesukrista Mahatme; it has been performed several times. Only when it was performed recently, there was trouble. That is because a lot of these trouble makers do not go and watch a talamaddale or Yakshagana. They use social media to circulate nonsense. One must not forget that they use this to showcase themselves and it has nothing to do with the art form or its practitioners.
Yakshaganas and Talamaddale has produced so many Ramayanas, more than the Three Hundred Ramayanas that Paula Richman documents. Mustn’t it be collected ?
It is a great idea, but the work and cost involved is so huge that it is difficult. We are trying through the Academy to get books written about masters of Yakshagana by connoisseurs. We are trying to make available all the 5000 or more written prasangas through a digital platform. Our focus is also on training youngsters.
