In an exclusive interview with The Hindu’s Vaiju Naravane in Oslo, Jonas Gahr Store, Norway’s Foreign Minister expressed the belief that a happy outcome to the Bhattacharya case was likely and said that India and Norway should put this behind them and invest more in a relationship that was of importance to both countries.
This case has generated a massive wave of emotion and ill feeling towards Norway. What is the way forward?
As a Foreign Minister, I have to respect the authority to look after the best interest of the child is, as always, in my country like in India, with the parents and the family. But in extreme cases, the situation is open for the child protection authority to intervene. My impression, having been in the Norwegian government for several years, is that taking a child into care is an extremely serious decision which is really taken as a last resort, when the situation warrants it, for the well-being of the children. I am fully aware that this has brought forth a lot of emotion in India, I have many friends in India who have come to me through government channels, in formal and informal channels alerting me to it and we have to work very systematically to bring out the correct information about procedures but I think everyone understands that the government cannot start commenting on details of a case which, at the outset, is a very serious matter.
So those facts being established, I have received Special Envoy Mr Ganapathi sent by my counterpart. My understanding is that he was able to see the authorities, visit Stavanger and that there is good progress on this matter now. The end station will be a legal decision, which I hope will lead to a satisfactory end to this story. And then I hope that we will have a mutual respect – in the sense that much of what I have seen in the papers and on the Blogosphere about Norway, frankly speaking, has been very unpleasant, as the Foreign Minister of my country and as somebody who has been driving our India policy to step it up. At the same time I understand why these things happen – because these are very emotional issues and obviously everything relating to parents and children, individually and collectively is a big thing. The instructions to my ministry and to our embassies have been to say: although we trust the authorities on this, we have to be very available to explain, and to understand the emotions in the matter. Now that this hopefully draws to an end, hopefully we will see a large family united and hopefully we will see a there will be mechanisms by which the best interests of the children will be safeguarded, I hope we can together turn back to his very important relationship. India and Norway are different, but not that different.
In India there is great admiration for Norway because of how you handle issues of transparency and public accountability. So Indians admire the model that Norway has set for itself. However, there is a feeling that when a society tries to be too perfect, tries to get everyone to conform to a certain mould, you can have an over reach of authority and if that overreach of authority has occurred, then there should be a recognition of it.
I think that is a fair comment. I hear some interpretation/ allegations on Norway that are made in that direction - we are trying to create some kind of perfect state model on how people can live. I would strongly refute that. I would say again that any state intervention into the private sphere of people is extremely serious and a last resort business – it has to be. But in order to make these decisions also sufficiently transparent and accountable, they need to be under the rule of law. And if ministers could intervene and block issues according to their political beliefs or their own assessments and even if the bulk of these decisions were reasonable at the end of the day we would be sliding down the scale not of family policies, but of the accountability of the legal system. I think that the rules which have been made to limit or to protect the integration of families are very stringent. I cannot comment on this case in particular but when authorities intervene it is for adequate reason. But then the families have legal recourse and appeal the case and there is some comfort to be taken from the fact that it is the substance of the issue not the amount of resources that you are able to mobilise that decides the matter. In this case you have all of India mobilising for this family against me, and that makes a strong impression on me and it would be very tempting for me to say that I can do without this noise with India, which is such an important country that I’ll instruct the courts. So the fact that I cannot do that is something I can bear but for the justice of our system, it is the price we have to pay not to be a corrupt country. At the end of the road, I have the belief that the final decision will be the best one, a good one a measured one.
This is the question I keep coming up against again and again, specifically about the Child Protection Service. I have been speaking to a variety of people, welfare officers, lawyers, academics, some very senior persons. One of them, a former welfare officer has gone through all the case papers and said: I think there might have been a better way of handling things. That the ultimate decision which the courts decided on was too drastic and that perhaps a solution could have been found which would have been more helpful because the ultimate aim is to keep families united and together, not to destroy them.
I would assume that neither him nor you nor I at this moment know the details of the matter.
We do.
Well you do from the accounts you have read in the press..
No. I have the full dossier and so does this person who is Norwegian and a former Welfare officer. And he feels that there are ways in which this could have been handled differently with greater sensitivity.
To what extent are you confident that you have the whole picture?
I have the decision of the County welfare Board, I have the District Court Judgment, I have the reports of psychologists, social workers. I have everything, the full dossier. I am not basing myself only on what the parents are saying. I want to be even handed. You have a Child Protection agency that has saved many more children than it has damaged lives or destroyed families or removed children either illegally or with undue haste. But no agency is infallible. And when there is fallibility, I think there has to be greater communication and greater thought on this subject. And my wish is that there might be an examination of this dossier at some point.
Let me comment on that. When there is intervention in a family that is purely Norwegian, that is dramatic in itself. To that we have to add the fact that in this globalised world people travel, settle down elsewhere in different cultural settings and I can see the curve of the consular cases going up. Cases of Norwegians who find themselves in a different framework and end up in trouble because the place where they settle have different traditions. Now we see it here. For example, one third of all prisoners in Norwegian jails are foreigners and can you imagine the test that puts on our legal system and on our legal system and when you live in Norway and pay your taxes you have equal rights under the Norwegian welfare system.
That statistic might lead to allegations that you are picking on immigrants?
I haven’t heard of that yet! But you will find a number of areas where cultural codes clash. And there can be many challenges that emerge from such a clash. Of course this can at the same time it can enrich a society because it makes a country more diverse. I’m in favour of that and for that we look to India as an inspiration because India is such a diverse country and it has pulled it off! And I often say when I take part in our debates about integration, diversity and pluralism and when some ask well, can democracy manage, I say well, its hard to compare our 5 million with India’s over one billion , you have managed. But the point you have raised is fair and I can say that when this has been settled in a way which be respectful of the family, the children and also of the respectfulness of the welfare system in Norway, we will evaluate. We will go back and look at what we learnt from this. Not perhaps primarily about the rules, but about how do you handle these issues. How the rules are interpreted, received by the people and applied.
An European family might not necessarily object to various social worker barging to your home to teach you structure and how to put order into your chaotic life — Indians would resent that and feel humiliated and see that as an attack on their way of life because lifestyles in India tend to be chaotic generally speaking… This family felt bewildered, resentful, humiliated as if it was being put down, told it was inadequate.
I think this is on the whole is an extremely liberal country. Compared to other countries between Norway and India in terms of geography, like Saudi Arabia for instance, if you try to practice your religion, lifestyle, culture or worship another God, you could be imprisoned. But I am a Foreign Minister and it is my job to look at different ways and be a kind of mediator on our system on that and I can tell you that my focus has been to take the calls from minister Krishna, receive his envoy and to communicate a maximum through our embassies so that we can manage this bilaterally and then we have to put this behind us and begin again and clearly it has begun. I think that that a massive popular reaction as we have seen, in my view based on mis-allegations going on for a few weeks is not without trace. But I am confident that if it ends well and if you are able to document some of the motivations behind this, we can come out of it in the way which is respectful of both sides. But I think it just illustrates that the policy of emotion is a very strong element.
I think the Child Protection Service has been lacking in communication with the India media. This blanket ban saying we shall not tell you anything. I am not asking for the details of this particular case. I am saying give me examples of different cases, A,B,C while keeping the confidentiality but tell us what happened in those cases., the process. How do you start, how do you evaluate, and when and at what time do you come to the conclusion that the situation is irretrievable and separation becomes inevitable. There has been a total refusal to communicate from them.
I think we have to learn from that. Because this is clearly a Service set up in Norway, a Norwegian context and I admit that some of these institutions created in a national context now have to operate in a global context, there is a lag there. I just think we have to admit that even a foreign ministry finds it hard to imagine that this issue, which is pretty clear in Norway, has to be thoroughly explained, even to a very close neighbour. I am very open to that and I think we will be very willing to look at this. But then I would expected in return to see the same readiness the other side to understand that this is so much a last resort measure that we in Norway take very seriously.
Keywords: Norwegian laws, child protection, Bhattacharya couple, cultural differences, child custody, India-Norway ties
Mohit ! I see that this debate between you & V. Suresh seems not to go in your favour. I see that you are responding with emotions and nationalism rather than facts, law and application of the law to the facts.
As a an India and resident of Norway, I am extremely grateful for the existence of the Child Protection Services. As a father I know that my children will be well looked after should anything untoward happen to my wife & myself. Having seen how my Indian relatives have treated their own unfortunate nephews & nieces, I would rather have a foster home monitored by the CPS than an Indian family arrangement. Please look at the conditions of children born to widows, children sold into bonded labour, children sold into brothels in Bombay before you pass any comments on conditions for children in Norway. Especially on the basis of 1 case, the facts of which you know nothing.
The greatest defense the Norwegian authorities has been employing is
the secrecy they have been maintaining about the details of the case
and hiding behind the Taushetplikten!Its the same defense Mr Støre is
attempting in the interview when the reporter confidently puts him on
the backfoot by informing him he has the details:)
There is no doubt that Norwegians are well meaning people but they are
also Naive when it comes to believing their organisations because in
general they are non corrupt and well functioning.So its easy for
their Press to convince the general populace that Barnevernet can do
no wrong and its just media hysteria in India whipped up by a Rich
Uppercaste family.
Although Norwegians claim transparency there is little of that as seen
in this case.Once the children return which i believe they will, the
details will be dissected in more detail to expose the fault lines of
Mr Gunnar Torensen and the Barnevernet.Till then people like Pratibha
can revel in ignorance:)
Mr. Mohit,
Interesting approach Sir ! On the one hand you refer me to the Norwegian press
and now you say I am mis-guided by it. And you also claim that only the Indian
press & yourself know the facts. I ignore this absurdity for now.
The matter will be decided a Norwegian court & not by the media - like it or not.
Period.
Among the issues the court may deliberate is whether conditions for removal from
parental custody were fulfilled in accordance with requirements stipulated in
Section 4-12 of the Child Protection Act. Maybe they were, maybe they were not.
But that is mere speculation from my side. My specialisation is in a different
branch of law & not family law per se and I will humbler than an expert in family
law like you. For, miraculously, you seem to know a lot more than me about
Norwegian family law, jurisprudence, facts of the case, & international law-despite
your now admitting that you dont know Norwegian.
I hereby rest my case Sir !
This interview should be preserved as a classic in how to conduct an interview with a minister who thinks he can justify any crime committed by an agency in this government. Take note: The Norwegian minister still wants us to believe that no details of the case have been released. Whereupon the journalist assures him that she has the decision of the County welfare Board, she the District Court Judgment, she has the reports of psychologists, social workers - "I have everything, the full dossier". Then the minister, obviously wrong-footed, goes off on a tangent about foreigners in Norwegian jails!
Is this really a representative of a democratic country? That is the first question that comes to my mind.
V Suresh, You are plainly misguided by what you are reading in the Norwegian press, because the Government of India's contention is that Norway has broken every international convention which is applicable in this case. Also contrary to what you believe, the Norwegian courts will be forced to take cognizance of the fact the children are citizens of India. Norway has a very weak legal position in this matter, if India were to take this case to an international tribunal. As for media and government pressure which you disapprove of - it is thanks to the debate on this issue in the INDIAN media that the GOI has taken up this issue in a forceful way with the Norwegian government. If that is what it takes to review a single case in the Norwegian CWS, then the CWS system is rotten indeed. Your 'vigorous debate'on the working of the CWS system are ludicrous. I certainly wouldn't care to learn Norwegian, after what I've seen of the way that country works.
Mr. Mohit Fortunately, it is not the debates in India or in Norway or the press that decide the
outcome of the case but the decisions of a court.
The Indian perspective in the case has been highlighted in almost all the major
newspapers and also in NRK, the biggest TV channel. But that does not mean that
the Indian view would be adopted by a judicial body in Norway. Let me remind you
that the applicable laws for deciding the case are Norwegian laws, not debates,
comments and opinions - Indian, Norwegian, yours or mine.
Even the GOI agrees that lex terrae i.e. "laws of the land" apply.
If you read Norwegian, I suggest that you read Aftenposten, the leading newspaper
where the functioning of the CWS is being debated. A similar discussion is also at
NRK dot com
In the past, courts have struck down CWS decisions, upheld CWS decisions.
Nobody, claims that the CWS is infallible. But it is the appeals process not debates
or media pressure which should decide whether it erred or not.
Suma: [Child abuse is prevalent (even tiny kids are nt spared) in some countries, however Norway should recognise that though other forms of child abuse takes place in Indian families, the alleged sexual abuse of small children somehow never happens. I lived in west for the last 20 years.] I have found this kind of complacent, utterly uninformed auto-orientalization to be the rule amongst NRI's. Pointless though it is, I feel moved to urge Suma of Des Peres, USA, to actually find something out about what you presume to know already purely by vitue of the fact that you were born in India. If you were a regular reader of an Indian newspaper, you would know that a recent major study, conforming to the highest standards of research and conducted by Indians themselves, has revealed that an appalling proportion of both male and female children are sexually abused by their own families. Learn something. About America too. You've been there long enough.
@V Suresh, If your claim that the CWS is subject to "vigorous debate" are true, then the Norwegians should welcome a perspective from the outside. But from what we have seen of the attitude of the Norwegian government, they refuse to admit that a mistake could have been made. They insist that the reasons for kidnapping the children were valid, and they even today refuse to reunite the family and return to India.
So it is quite clear that the "intense internal scrutiny" which you refer to is either non-existent, or it is a sham which obviously fools the Norwegian public.
Mr. Iversen: You assert that CWS errors must be viewed as human rights violations to be treated by the international community. That does indeed happen.
You may have forgotten that Norway ratified the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe in 1952. In Human Rights cases, after the appeals process is exhausted in domestic courts, the matter can be further appealed to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) in Strasbourg. ECHR verdicts are binding on the state and these verdicts can overturn even the highest domestic courts ruling.
Article 8 of the Convention (the right to respect for private & family life) is usually what is invoked in cases such as placement in foster care. As of 2010, the ECHR had delivered 28 judgements concerning Norway. Approximately 6 involved Article 8 violations. Hope this clarifies.
Mr. Mohit
In Norway, the workings of the CWS, like every other public body are the subject of
intense internal scrutiny, political oversight & media coverage and people are free
to pillory politicians and public bodies.
The Aftenposten, a leading newspaper has a very vigorous debate now about the
CWS. The posts there are of the following types:
- Some people criticise the CWS for over-reach & insensitivity and excessive use of
foster homes
- Some criticise the CWS for inaction when they were kids, essentially their pleas to
be taken away from abusive households and placed into foster care went unheard
and were not acted upon by the CWS
- Some were unhappy with their foster home arrangements
- Some were happy that the CWS placed them in foster care
The functions of the CWS are usually - but not always performed - by the
extended family in India & state support is minimal.
The CWS is a vital institution in Norway & the ongoing debate about it is healthy
and necessary.
There are a few Indians living in Norway who appear to the defending this corrupt system which steals children on the grounds that we don't know the facts. I think these people should be made to realize that we live in a world where it is easy to access information even if it is in a foreign language.
This case of the Indian parents being subject to the torture of having their children snatched away from them is not unique in Norway. The Norwegians have been carrying out a state-sponsored child snatching for decades. They seem quite impervious to any criticism about their society and so-called welfare state. I think it is time for all the countries whose citizens have been affected by this systematic Norwegian torture to get together and file a joint petition against in the International Criminal Court for Crimes against Humanity.
@Pratibha, If you have grown up in Norway, then you have obviously not read the kind of criticism the Norwegian "child care" authorities have been subject to for their methods and their ideology. You should make an attempt to see things from the outside. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has criticized Norway for taking children away from their parents. There are some 15000 children in Norway who have been taken away from the their parents. In a country of barely 5 million that is a large number. There are evidently very serious breaches of human rights in Norway which are not spoken of aloud.
As for any comparison with India - at least in India we know what the problems are, and we are free to criticize our political system.
Mr.Raamganesh,
I belong to theSt.Thomas Christians of Kerala,India,one of the most ancient Christian communities in the world,and inGod's providence I was born in the Orthodox section of it,in a family with a recorded history of 700 years,as mentioned on p.673 of the Quilon District Gazetteer.So I could be permited to gently remind the Norway of the affront to Christianity in abducting a 3 year old boy and a five month old girl,on the basis of newly hatched social theories,and laws based on those.Let world jurists at The Hague decide if this and other Norwegian cases are allegedly CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.The five month old little angel will by instinct suffer agony and separation from mother now,and all through life,on becoming aware of the cruelty inflicted on her by a super-state!Can anybody deny it?
I agree;child abuse by R.C.priests has occurred in USA,Canada, Ireland etc.Does it mean that Norway must follow suit and hurt children?NORWAY COULD CONSIDER SUITABLY AMENDING THIS LAW.
Rev Theckedath,
At the outset, this post is NOT, repeat NOT about the Bhattacharya case.
There is absolutely no doubt that a stable home with doting, caring, loving parents
is the best for children everywhere in the world. But alas Reverend, there are
sinners in the real world as you surely know better than me.
What do you do when a child is born to a drug addicted prostitute? What does one
do when a child lives in a home with severe alcohol abuse? What do you do when
there is physical violence in the home, often towards the child? Sexual abuse ?
Complete emotional apathy ? Do you pray and hope for miracles and divine
intervention? Certainly NOT!
As a former case worker, some of the dossiers I had were gut wrenching stuff to
read. Simply horrendous.
Sadly, these things occur in Norway, India and everywhere else.
But in Norway, the government intervenes with various measures to ameliorate
things for the child - with deprival of custody as an extreme last measure. Thank
God !
Ms. Prathiba
Thanks very much for bringing in a degree of balance to this debate.
Co-sleeping and cultural variances alone do not justify removal of custody. To the
newspaper Dagbladet of 19th Jan, Mr. Gunnar Toresen of the CWS asserts that
cultural variances alone have not led to removal of the kids. Indeed, even the
defence lawyer of the family, Mr. Svein Svendsen, in the same article in Dagbladet,
acknowledges that the CWS decision builds on other factors. I quote him " .. a
holistic assessment was done..." The newspaper also reports that corporal
punishment was in the picture as well as an alleged emotional disconnect between
mother and child. As always, I will take much of the media reports with a pinch of
salt, but my translation of Mr. Svendsen`s remark is a direct quote.
Ms. Suma
I think my post answers a question you raise to Ms. Pratibha. But then, no 3rd
party knows whether there is ir-refutable evidence of abuse. Whether the CWS
erred or not is for the courts to judge
@Prathiba,
you having lived there presumably know more than we do, what was the irrefutable evidence that confirm abuse with this young couple. Lets leave for a second the hand feeding and co sleeping (please google co sleeping) aside. Is there a case , just asking.
@Bishop Mar George Theckedath - Sir, you make the most egregious error of generalization by seeming to condemn all of Norwegian society based solely on this one case. And even in this case it is not at all clear that the Norwegian Child Services is in the wrong. UNICEF says this - "A true measure of a nation's standing is how well it attends to its children - their health and safety, their material security, their education and socialization, and their sense of being loved, valued and included in the families and societies into which they are born". And according to this criterion, Norway comes out on the top of the rankings in every measure, far ahead of more "Christian" countries. If the christian church would like to say something about child rights, perhaps it could first own responsibility for its own evils and start to prosecute all those pastors who sexually abused the children in their care.
@Prathiba - Your comments provide some much needed perspective on
this issue, thank you.
I have myself been raised in Norway, but have ethnic roots in India. Inlast 25 years, during
my upbringing, I have never come across any child in my school or neighbourhood being
taken away by the Barnevernet. I will have to agree with the minister that it happens only in
extreme cases. Of course the Barnevernet can also make a mistake or over-react, which
could be the case in the Bhattacharya story. The Barnevernet took their children away after
observing the situation for 5 months. Feeding by hand or sleeping in the same bed are minor
points. No details about what kind of violence took place in the household has been let out. I
think the Barnevernet know their job. But because the children are Indian citizens, and in
Norway only temporarily, the Barnevernet should have contacted Indian authorities after
having taken those children in their custody. This case has been blown out of proportion only
because the Bhattacharyas are resourceful and have higher political contacts.
All of the some one and a quarter billion Indians, are indebted to "The Hindu" and its correspondent Mr. Vaiju Naravane for publishing the interview with Norway's Foreign Minister Mr. Jonas Store on the momentous issue of the abduction of our two helpless toddlers,citizens of India,by the Child Protection Society of Norway, violently tearing them away from the divinely established bonds of blood and love with their parents, which are respected in all societies and religions, and which cannot be lightly and arbitrarily violated by the fetishism of novel social theories and laws made on that basis!
< Norway! please revive your Christianity, and request your Hon.P.M.to send our children back.
Mr Gahr Store tows the official line but is, as he will be well aware, economical with the truth. He will for instance be cognizant of the second CPS case in Stavanger involving a Polish couple where there appear to have been no rational grounds for removal of the children. He will also have read the column in Aftenposten 29th February where the Polish journalist Henryk Malinowski, who has spent 30 years in Oslo, describes how many Polish families have been smothered by the CPS. These are not the last resort cases Gahr Store alludes to and the Bhattacharya case is not unique. Each such CPS error constitutes and should be treated by the international community as a serious human rights violation. To dismiss those expressing concerns over such violations as emotive is unhelpful. At the moment we don’t know how many skeletons that are hiding in the CPS cupboard but more files should be opened and subjected to impartial scrutiny.
A very good interview. Thanks to “The Hindu” for bringing this article . Given the blanket nature of “Child Protection Service” in Norway and the price Norway “has to pay not to be a corrupt country “- We should add to the price the separation of these young children from their parents. The way this instance is folding out, it is a price too high to bear.
Norway send the Indian citizens back to India without condition and without delay.
Suma, what is the evidence in support of your comment that sexual abuse of small children never happens in Indian families? It sounds like wishful thinking. Despite vast cultural differences, some features of human behaviour are common all over the world. For example, violence against women is pervasive in all countries although its forms might vary. Physical punishment and cruelty towards children is routine in India, so there is no reason to believe that sexual abuse is absent. The key is not to shove it under the carpet but to address it as a serious issue and put in place structures to deal with it.
Finally, after weeks of this issue being in the media spotlight, we get to hear the other side of the story. Thanks to The Hindu for this interview. I think that Norway needs to understand that it is not enough to just stand by your principles in silence. They must be willing to communicate and explain their stand and if they don't, this is exactly the kind of PR disaster they can expect. An article like this must have appeared in the media weeks ago, when the story first broke out.
Such gawkish, inappropriate responses. The response to the question about administrative overreach is that "this is the price we have to pay to not be a corrupt country". I wonder which corrupt country he had in mind? He is more forward when hiding behind other countries than India...apparently Norway is liberal enough because in Saudi Arabia you cannot practice your lifestyle or culture! That's not even true on facts. The Norwegian government is apparently so un-used to being questioned or speaking to the press that they dont even have the glib politician's responses that even a first-time municiple officer from any small town in India would have rattled off to the interviewer. Anyway, all this talk of corruption and Saudi Arabia is beside the point. Two little Indian children are being forcibly deprived of their Indian parents for no justifiable reason - documents are now available with everyone other than, apparently, the Norwegian government. Send those children back home!
While living in England and USA we didnt hesitate for a second to bring our two tiny kids into our beds several nights a week, especially when they needed that extra assurance from us. That was pure love, the same my parents extended to me when i was a toddler. Yes they were hand fed as well.Our way of family bonding, no matter where on earth we live, have distinct cultural parameters we strongly adher to. Child abuse is prevalent (even tiny kids are nt spared) in some countries, however Norway should recognise that though other forms of child abuse takes place in Indian families, the alleged sexual abuse of small children somehow never happens. I lived in west for the last 20 years.
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