Prime accused in the abduction, sexual assault and murder of siblings' namely Mohan alias Mohanraj alias Mohanakrishnan (27) was shot dead in an encounter on the Podanur - Vellalore road around 5.30 a.m. on Tuesday.
The former school van driver Mohanraj on October 29 kidnapped a ten-year-old girl and her seven-year-old brother Rithish both children of textile mechant Ranjith and Sangeetha of RG Street. The children were waiting for their school van, when the accused using his earlier acquaintance with the children took them away in a van that he had borrowed from his friend. The accused later joined his accomplice Manoharan (23) of Angalakurichi near Pollachi.
The duo had originally planned to seek ransom from the parents but subsequently changed their mind owing to the fear of being nabbed by the police and sexually assaulted the girl and physically tortured the boy before drowning both of them in the PAP canal.
The girl's body was recovered near Vavipalayam near Pongalur 77 km from Thirumurthy hills on Friday late night and the boy's body was recovered on Sunday noon. The police arrested both the accused and cases were registered against them for abduction, sexual assault and murder besides concealment of evidence.
On November 8, the police took custody of the accused for investigation. On November 9 morning, the police took both of them around 5.30 a.m. for making them identify the places where the accused had committed the offence of sexual assault, murder and drowning. They were escorted by Inspectors Kanagasabapathy and Annadurai besides sub-inspectors Muthumalai and Jothi. When the vehicle was crossing the Vellalore compost yard of the corporation on the Podanur - Vellalore road, the accused Mohanraj reportedly snatched the pistol of one of the Sub-Inspectors and placed it on the head of the Head Constable cum driver Annadurai and tried to stop the vehicle in a bid to escape.
When the driver failed to stop, he indiscriminately opened fire in which Sub-Inspector Jothi sustained an injury in his right arm, while the bullet pierced into the stomach of Sub-Inspector Muthumalai. Immediately, Inspector Annadurai is said to have opened fire in self-defence and two bullets hit the head of the accused while one went into the chest killing the accused on the spot.
The body of the accused was brought to Coimbatore Medical College Hospital for post-mortem while the injured sub-inspectors were admitted to the Kovai Medical Centre Hospital. City Police Commissioner C. Sylendra Babu said that the police had to open fire to prevent the accused from killing the police personnel and to foil his attempt to escape from custody. Mr. Sylendra Babu also called on the injured police officers at the private hospital.
Keywords: siblings murder case, encounter, Coimbatore
very excellent job done by commissioner. ve all happy in our family. but some irresponsible traffic polices behaving like beggars like getting money from publics it ll spoil all police officers name . our commissioner should take steps for this also......... thank u for tamilnadu police. we need every state in india like shialendrababu sir.
my harty wishes sir............
whether it is fake encounter or not, we don't care. The decision of the police personnel is the need of the hour. We appreciate the officers and commissioner.. May God preserve him for the well being of the society.
i was really surprised and anguished that The Hindu did not carry a editorial about the failure of the justice system in the Coimbatore twin children murder and cinema style encounter killing. The encounter killing should be condemned by all right thinking people whatever the reason maybe. Today we may consider encounter justified but in the future we may be the target of the police who do such encounters. Police excess is not to be rewarded. Why do we have a justice system ? a impartial judiciary ? we all who blame thee system are all corrupt ! we are not above corruption. haven't we done something unethical or bribed somebody? Where do we have the locus standi to talk about ? We say the nation must change ? have we changed ? first let us change and then talk about Indian mindsets or India is like this attitude..
We public support this kind of encounters.
Good Job Done by Coimbatore Police. Congratulations to Sailendrbabu IPS and Team. Indian law cannot give Justice as it has many Loopholes.
The court should decide not by police. I read all the comments most of them like to do encounter. If you start encounter then police need machine guns to shoot most of the politicians .. all done rape and betrayel the public.
My hearty Congratulations to those Police officers who are on the scene and others who supports this encounter. Right Punishment. You can forgive anything but not this kind of brutal act. I am now proud of police in my city. But i would be more happy if it was taken to the court and the judge has given such judgement.
Excellent Job by Tamil Nadu Police! No point of speaking about judiciary in this case. This is a commendable job by our state Police.Just think - will it be good if we present them in front of court of Law and asking them how did this merciless killing of the siblings happen? Can the parents of the children digest this sitting in the court and appearing for this case?
i am quite surprised by the comments of the readers, i doubt whether they are the regular readers of the Hindu or some other propaganda journalism. The Hindu irrespective of the crime alleged or convicted always supported justice. As this news item timing suggests its a clear case of another Sorrabhudin fake encounter. Instead of thinking and judging it seems people are letting their emotions run. They have to think that the accused is not convicted. Will these emotional people suggest the same punishment if their kith and kin are involved in such incident? so if we go by this justice just imagine the situation from rape to slap what will happen to ordinary people we they go to the police stations. Just imagine a situation and then respond. Why are these people not stirred and moved when bigger scam and innocent people are killed from Gujarat riots to Kashmir. And more over we still don't know the case in detail whether its one man's action or like Sorrabhudin fake encounter and big criminal and politician nexus.
If a Pakistani national killing 162 people including many children can get a fair trial, I do not understand why this guy shouldn't be given the same. It is not supporting the culprit but what if an innocent is killed in this way because of political pressure. So many people supporting it shows the failure of justice system in India especially in TN.
Criminals are usually killed when they try to reveal too much about important people. It is much easier for the police to close this case now, than investigate further.
Fake or real encounter, Congrats and Thanks to Coimbatore Police for delivering instant justice to those two children and their family. The Crimes will reduce only when punishments are severe and instant.
Why do the Human Rights organizations not apply the same standards of propriety to themselves which they demand of the police? People are quick to condemn this as a fake encounter. Well, then if the principle of "innocent before proven guilty" is to be applied to vile criminals such as Mohan, let the police personnel who were involved in this episode first be proven beyond reasonable doubt to have acted mala-fide in this encounter. There are some instances where the rule of law (in human terms) has to submit to the greater justice of the whole episode viewed in its entirety and this is one such instance. Contrary to the hue and cry raised by many concerned voices, this does not threaten the rule of law -- it merely affirms it and gives us hope that justice is above everything - even the technicalities of the law.
Assaulting and murdering two innocent children shocked the entire state. I really thought this case will take atleast another 5yrs to prove the murderers guilty and give them life sentence instead of hanging them. But finally the judgement was given by GOD himself. Well done inspectors!!.
It seems to be a Fake encounter. This killing is expected in this sensitive case. But if this is repeated to innocents in another case? Very genuine enquiry is needed to formulate the procedure to be followed to prevent such encounters in future and to draw the new rules to be followed while transporting accused.
This encounter is really a threat to those engage themselves in such unpunishable crimes and the action of Coimbatore police needs to be congratulated.
In my view fantastic work by the Coimbatore Police. These murderous souls defintely need to die this way.Hope all city commissioners have the bravery and courage to act like this and kill instantly those who commit heinous crimes against innocent children and others.
Many circumstances of this case are beyond belief. Why was there such a sensation created to establish DNA links? Surely it could have been done quietly, before the matter went to court. There is also the bizaare situation of the accused shooting the police escorts (when he should have been in handcuffs), and getting shot dead. The souls of these children will not rest in peace until the guilty person is punished. So far only the accused has been shot dead, and it is universally accepted that an accused person is not necessarily guilty, unless the Courts decide so.
The Coimbatore Police have done a very good job. The court would have given a death sentence after a minimum of 5 years. This was a quick justice rendered for a heinous crime.
There is no difference between criminals and police Both are violators of constitutional rights to citizens. Why is instant justice always implemented in the case of economically weeker sections only. At Hyderabad we are seeing goons with money, muscle and political power whom police can never touch. Equal justice and punishment for all.
Dear Mr. Shakti velu, Would your comments be the same if the murdered children were yours? The ideal thing is not always the best thing to do especially in a very corrupt system like ours! Fake or real encounter, punishments have to be instant and severe to send right signals. Right signals have been sent to the criminals by this encounter. We all know how fast the Indian courts are! Governments and policing agencies have to do some "wrong deeds" to achieve more right things!
Hats off to Coimbatore Police.
It is an open secret that this is a fake encounter and I welcome it to the core of my heart. To everybody who is speaking of human rights can you imagine what if this happens to your family members(though I do not wish so). Would you wait for the verdict for 5 or 10 years, Well I don't think so. You would be first person to rejoice the killing. May the kids soul rest in peace and my prayers goes to their family.
Indian judicial system is corrupt. Period. Justice is for sale. The property details of judges must be made available publicly. While this could be wrong - somehow we get a feeling encounters like these will create fear in the minds of the criminals.
The important thing is to learn our lessons from these incidents.One, the justice delivery system needs to be revamped and made quick,efficient and reliable for people and the police to have faith in it. In cases of abuse of children, the punishment should be death without pardon and the case should be concluded within a reasonable time limit. Two, citizens need to be proactive and make schools provide reliable and safe transportation. What use is the fundamental right to education if the child cannot reach the school safely and comfortably? In this connection, schools can think of hiring buses from State Transport Corporation just like what is being done in Bengaluru.
Yes, this may be a fake encounter but would all those people try explaining what will happen if the case is tried in court? The accused, who is now 27, will be back by 37 and may be as inclined to commit these crimes as he ever will be or may be he might be acquitted. I would suggest the Government legislate dealth penalty for all criminals accused of murder and sexual assault cases on minors and trial be mandatorily completed in a span of 2 weeks.
Most of the reactions is born out of sympathy, sentiment, moral indignation and may be also due to creaky legal system. But this is contrary to rule of law and creates bad precedent.
If this is a fake encounter, Its time for us to introspect. Will this happen to all similar criminals, or only in certain cases like this, if so what is the driving factor behind it? Is it money? or politics? or sentiment! If this is a genuine case of encounter!! Its really a shame on our police system, how careless can they be! Every one will think this to be a planned encounter. What ever the truth is, it is very saddening to realize how criminal cases are handled. Criminals need to be punished in a way that it plants fear of death in other potential criminals roaming outside, by which there is a chance such crime activities can come down. In this political era we are seeing heart wrenching criminals roaming around free! And some getting killed like this. Our Judiciary and political system has to be so strong enough , that such criminals are punished to death without causing any delay. Only such system will give us some comfort and sense of security. Though this doesn't give me any sense of relief or comfort.. may be it was the correct thing to happen.
Obviously this is a fake encounter. Are we living in a Tribal state? The guy should have been hanged but by following the law.
In India, criminal justice was cut and pasted from British Raj. The British made laws to protect themselves, if they did crimes. Now the neo Indian criminals use the same law to escape from punishment. Our judicial system has to be rewritten from scratch, otherwise we would have to pray to GOD to send us more Sailandra Babus to deliver deserving justice.
This is ridiculous on the part of police. Neither the police should disclose the sexual assault of deceased girl to the Media, nor they should committ this Fake encounter.If somebody files a Writ petition in the Highcourt the same Police officers/Commissioner etc will not help the Poor Inspectors of Police.This was happend in Chennai City @ North Chennai in 2002. Really Sorry state of affairs.
Although it's a fake encounter, the Police have no other way to punish such a cruel person like Mohanraj. I am not supporting the Police action, but I am of the opinion that "Justice delayed is justice denied". That's why the Police have taken Law in their hand.
Well done Sailendra babu,We salute you.
The incident signals the urgent need for reform of India's criminal justice delivery system. Under the present system, victims get re-victimised and the offenders are left scot-free for want of evidences. Facts of the cases are judged solely on the evidence placed before the court and merits of the case depends solely on the professional expertise of the public prosecutors. A report of National Human Rights Commission says that more than 44,000 children go missing every year in India and about 11,000 of them are never traced. Are all these children get mystified in the air? Indian Justice delivery system is tight-lipped on this point. Five years ago, my friend's two year old daughter, Sai Tejeswini by name, was kidnapped by their servant in December 2005 at Tirumala, Tirupati. When the parents of the child approached the police, they did not file an FIR immediately, rather they advised them that they could search for them for a couple of days. The kidnapper later telephoned and admitted that he kidnapped the child. Police took no efforts to trace him. I and my friends traced his calls by fixing a caller-id in the telephone and after ascertaining that he was in Hyderabad, we contacted the City Police Commissioner, Hyderabad. He helped us and the kidnapped was arrested in Hyderabad in January 2006 when he made another call to the child's parents demanding ransom. He was produced before a magistrate. He confessed that he strangled the baby to death. But no evidence in proof of murder of the baby was found by the police. Still, they prosecuted him on kidnapping and murder charges. lastly, the court acquitted him for want of evidences and stating that the FIR was filed three days after the incident. This is the classic example of Indian Justice delivery system! Neither the child was traced, nor anyone was punished!
No doubt eye for eye is not a good solution. But in this case the small school children has been sexually abused, murdered and thrown to canal need to be handled in this way only. This also shows the government machinery has lost faith among people. The current politicians are ruling the nation with out principle and this will be the end if it continues
I don't understand why the values of people have gone absymal. Majority of the people who have commented seem to be happy with the killing of the accused. How can one be so sure if the accused is the one who actually committed this heinous crime. No one is guilty until proven to be so. In my opinion, killing the accused is destroying evidence of the crime trial on who was behind this. The accused may have been a pawn who was played by someone. We will never get to know the bottom of this. God have mercy on the parents for their insurmountable loss..
Ponnarasi : This act is dangerous and however "Fair" it may seem, eventually it will get out of control and lead to fake encounters everywhere. Several innocent people will be killed and the case closed. I am sure you know about such cases where innocent people are jailed just to get the case closed. Secondly, no one has the right to anyone else's life. We are not living in the trees anymore.
My first reaction was - good job done. But in a country where we even take Kasab through a judicial process, I think it would have been better if it was proved that this person was the accused and then be awarded death penalty. It might have taken a while but at least proved that this guy was guilty.
No doubt this was clearly orchestrated by the police. But this goes to prove the people have little faith in the much delayed judicial system of the land. If the judiciary doesn't drastically correct itself you are bound to see more heinous demonstrations by police and later by the public taking the law in their own hands. Having said all this what where the National Human Rights Forum and the Coimbatore Human Rights Forum doing, when the two young children were brutally murdered. Why a comment only when a law breaker is being murdered demanding a FIR and a probe? What role were you playing when the innocent kids lost their lives? Or Human Rights part and parcel for only Criminals when they are caught and not when innocent people lose their lives by brutality? Please refrain from unscrupulous comments for the sake of commenting. You will feel the pain only when your flesh is torn!!!
I just dont understand how could any one even think about anything else instead of being happy! They ought to be dead and its done! No matter what game was played or who was forced by whose comments etc, accused is dead and its all that matters!
There is law to punish but poilce taking advantage of their power.
Great show police men, But its a preplanned murder. not an encounter
The death of the one accused should not be a hurdle in trying the other accused. The other accused (Manoharan) should be taken to the court, Police should be in a position to establish the crime (whether he was the prime accused or the co-accused) and then capital punishment should be awarded to him. The Human Rights Commission and other like bodies should think of the plight of the two innocent children before they left the world. The decision of the Bar Council at Coimbatore not to appear for the accused should stand, in spite of the developments. Police need to take this as a lesson and may experiment of tying the hands of the accused along with the seat(s) while transporting. After all, they are humans only in names and not in their actions.
Interesting to see some of the posting, it looks like mob justice, what difference is there between the deceased and us. Moreover how will you know who was behind the murder of those to kids. Probably he is only a tool, now no one knows for sure. This person is required to be punished no doubt about it, but fake encounter is not the way.Lets see what happens to his accomplice.
Tthis is a perfect case of "do here, pay here". The duo have not any moral right to live. The fake police encounter has been justified. The two babies got justice
This is a quick judgement from GOD. Poor and innocent kids were brutally murdered. Think about the pains the girl and boy had undergone on those moments of their death. Whoever says, the act by police was wrong, they are crazy. Even if police deliberately killed them, it is admirable. Those police officials should be promoted. Quick judgement has consoled the parents much though their pain never ends till their death. As long as there are loopholes in laws, there is every chance of a criminal escpaing most henious crimes like this. Quick punishments will deter similar crimes. HINDU has done its job very well by writing in detail about the incident with photograph. I must say "no parent in india should let the child go to the bus stop alone". Learn from this horrific incident.
This episode will not make us proud! This is a clear case of fake-encounter. It is sad that our police give up on the idea of pursuing a case even in the most trivial of the cases. The crime that the criminal did was heinous, but today the cops have made our Constitution irrelevant and taken our country back and forward in prosecution. An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind!!
Even if it is a fake encounter, this is the correct justice.
Whether the encounter is Fake or real three lives are lost - we cannot bring them back to Life. Rampant liquor consumption, obscene cinemas, decline in family value sstem and societal pressure to earn more in less time are the root causes behind these atrocities
The police officers have to be congratulated. It is the only way to control crime rate.
I can think of two options to understand what happened. (1) The police handling the accused are incompetent: the accused was not properly restrained and he was allowed to get access to a police pistol or (2) The police have no respect for law: like an unruly mob, they faked the encounter. Either way the police are guilty. I was one of the millions that felt extremely sorry for what happened to the two children and very angry. However, it is important that emotions should not blindly overpower the rule of law. Immediately after arresting the accused, Tamil news channels showed the anger expressed by the public. Someone commented that the accused must be beaten to death by the public. I would have rather liked the accused (if proved guilty) to receive the capital punishment, after the trial. If anyone can punish the accused, it is meaningless to have courts and law.
The first news this morning has softened our hearts. Justice is done. What a great job done by the Police. We are not bothered about what happens in the court. Instant justice is done. It was really disheartening to see those lovely buds plucked cruelly by these mosters. When I could not bear the loss of those children how could their parents bear? This is the best thing to happen for the cruel killers. Hats off to Sailendra Babu and the Team. The public would stand by you brave policemen.
It appears to be a fake encounter. Is he the real culprit? Is he a bait for police to get name and fame ?
Hats off to Coinmbatore Police. Let this send a strong signal to all those who have an idea of kidnapping and getting away with it. Lets have more of such instant justice. Not only is investigation the job of police but preventing of crimes too and we have given such kind of powers to the police to weed off such animals. So lets not delve into the details of the encounter and create sensationalism. These kind off incidents are a necessary evil and we better turn blind eye to it.
When POLICE become JUDGES, POLICE STATIONS becomes COURTS, Democracy will fade and hooliganism will rule the roost. In AP, two years back a similar police encounter as was done in Coimbatore the other day" three 2nd year Engineering Students were killed in Karimnagar District head quarters by AP police headed by SP Mr.Sajjanar and the crime is One of the three students poured Acid on a girl. On that day one of deceased student father suffered severe heart attack. Here POLICE played the role of JUDGES, media repeatedly showed women standing in lines to great this SP. Media publicized so much even the parents of deceased did not accept the bodies. What is the consequence? Was this killing of students was taken as a lesson and did the acid attacks stop? The next day after the encounter killing another student attacked his classmate with Acid. So killing of students is not a lesson. It is the duty of the Police to handover the Suspect/ Culprit to the Court with proper investigation and the Courts are the right place where fate of Culprit will be decided. Police should be booked for murder and tried under the law.
There is the law to punish the person but police are taking advantage of their power; this is not good. He has committed a mistake - we can hang in jail as per the law. This was clearly pre-planned encounter. Shame on cops.
Good Justice, Well done Coimbatore police.. Our heartfull thanks to our Commissioner Mr.Sylendra Babu.
This is a Fake encounter. This is also needed at this time atleast the criminals will not initiate this type of abduction and murder.
Fake encounter or not...Justice is delivered. The human side does not apply to an accused like him and got to give a pat in the back for the Coimbatore Police. Well done and the whole city is proud of your actions.
Encounter is fake or not, this should serve as an eye opener to other criminals. Justice rendered without delay...
Let there be an FIR on the incident and let it be investigated by a special police team from Chennai as directed by the National Human Rrights Commission, to bring out the truth : Coimbatore Human Rights Forum.
Very Good, we need more actions like this
It is becoming very common in Indian TVs and news papers to show dead people while the western world abandoned this practice longtime ago, Please consider the sensitivity of your readers and viewers. There is no need to show the dead body.
Swift justice delivered. Thanks to the Coimbatore Police. This would also serve as a warning or an example for other criminals!
All those people who congragulate the police, have no shame at all. A murder is a murder, whether it is of a criminal or an ordinary person. Dozens of policemen can't catch on person alive??? Everyone should be punished by the law and should be given time to regret and later lead an model life. Killing is not justice. The convict has plenty of time to understand his mistake and seek pardon and be a model for others. Instead of guiding him to right path, the police killed him.
Now many human rights watch dogs will foul cry. But to prove this crime in the court has many hurdles. If there is no nailing evidence there are lots of chances the accused can go free. End will not justify the means in all cases, but in this case it is okay
The procedures followed during transportation of the accused need to be reviewed and changed. One measure which would ensure such 'encounters' never happen again (unless the police want an encounter)is handcuffing these alledged criminals at the back instead of at the front which will not give them the liberty of 'snatching a gun from a policeman accompanying the alledged criminal'
Rrankly, I am pleased with the CBE police action, espacially in this case, where punishment has been given, though I might not call it justice. However, this is a sure case of fake encounter. A case where people's sentiment forced the politicans to take this call. Poor policemen who had to take the bullets to create the cover up story. Also it shows the poor faith in judiciary as we the people neither expect speedy justice nor even justice. May those angles rest in peace.
This suspiciously looks completely staged. What if the person killed was accused wrongly to cover up the murder by somebody more influential and powerful. We only have data presented to us and we jump to the conclusion that justice has been served. This is not how things should work. Tomorrow one of us could be similar victims.
Everyone knows what truth is behind this encounter.But such encounters can be avioded, if parents, employees, women are more cautious. The idea to commit a crime comes when there is a chance shown or given.So please be more cautious. Regard to this encounter. Justice is delivered, but only 50%, still one more accused is alive.
Justice done. The culprits deserved to be shot. Fake encounter or not, the job done by Coimbatore police is commendable.
I doubt that this was an encounter killing. He must have died in custody and an encounter had to be faked. This is not an option open for a democratic country with a justice system. On the contrary, is there a justice system in place in our country, what with the custodians of the law taking law into their hands and go on a rampage within the precincts of the High Court with violence spilling over to the main road outside the court? Law and order is not only violated by criminal elements in the society but by the law and order enforcement machinery.
V. Good. Thanks to Police.
It's usual to take the accused to the spot of incident. Hats off to Mr.Annadhurai who did not let the accused escape. Hope at least in future they chain the accused to a seat of the vehicle while transporting.
Police did a commendable job. We have to appreciate them for delivery a quick justice to the family. And this is the only answer to persons who killed the little kids brutally.
Swift Justice! Encounter or not, My sincere thanks to Coimbatore Police!
Such incidents happen due to apathy of those involved in selecting proper personnel. Somebody should take responsibility for service. In this case the transport should be associated with school and school must check history of the person with Police before employing the driver. How criminals get jobs in such places that's the first question. Similar incidents happen in IT/BPO companies, hospitals. Unless and until somebody who hires such services are made party to the crime such incidents will continue to happen. They should be held responsible. Once they are held responsible, they will be serious in employing personnel. There is an urgent need to make a law of responsibility.
This is a fake encounter. Karunanidhi was pressurized by Jayalalitha's comments and so he ordered this "murder". Another political game. That's all.
This looks like a fake encounter. Whether is justified or not, it shows the loss of faith in the judiciary, which is a dangerous sign.
very good....
Sir, It is surprising that the police kept the accused criminals without handcuffs and so careless that he could snatch the weapon and fire.A special Training Course should be devised to train the policemen in escorting accused criminals. Such encounters however true they may be cast aspersions on the police force and doubts in the mind of the thinking people
Will make a good movie. 5.30 am -- no handcuff!! -- Poor policemen who had to take some bullets to fake this murder.
These types of guys are not to be taken to court or the police station. They should have been shot at the first itself. Well death was the right sentence for him since people like them dont know the meaning of life..
It is sad to see The Hindu has also descended to tabloid sensationalist journalism by publishing such grotesque and graphic pictures. This is a family newspapper read by children as well. Did you think of what deleterious effect this might have on their minds? Also does the person (accused only, not proven guilty, in this case) not deserve any dignity in death? A reserved approach is the hallmark of a mature journalism.
Well Done Inspectors.
Well Done by Sylendra babu and team. Now the siblings soul will rest in peace.
It is very tragic and atrocious that a well acquainted driver resorted to kidnapping and killing of two innocent children. May this serve as an eye opener to all other parents to never fully trust paid servants and warn their children from travelling without being accompanied by elders.
Not withstanding the gavity of the crime commited by the suspects. This is a clear case of Fake Encounter. It is naive to believe that armed police could not control a handcuffed individual, that too in closed van.
Looks like even police force doesn't beleive in criminal justice system. They want to dispense justice outside the courts for henious crimes. Sad state of criminal justice system in India.
Please Email the Editor