In recent times, Dalits in Nagapattinam district have 'threatened' to convert to Islam if they are not allowed to participate and perform temple rituals. This raises questions whether the state needs another movement on temple entry. Join us for a live chat with VCK's D. Ravi Kumar and our correspondent Udhav Naig.
Here is the transcript:
4:53
The Hindu: Welcome to The Hindu's live chat on whether Tamil Nadu's worship places are inclusive.
4:53
The Hindu: We have with us today VCK's Ravikumar to share his insights on the issue following the temple incident in Ariyalur recently.
4:55
The Hindu: Ariyalur district administration has recently clamped prohibitory orders at Silambur Therkku village near Andimadam following differences between a section of Vanniyars and Dalits over worship at the local Ayyanar temple.
4:55
Ravikumar: hello vanakkam
4:55
The Hindu: Also with us today is our correspondent Udhav Naig
4:57
The Hindu: Welcome Mr.Ravikumar!
4:57
Ravikumar: Thank You
4:58
Comment From HKV
Hello. Can you tell us which areas of TN still see resistance to Dailt entry and participation in temples?
4:58
Comment From Guest
It is surprising to see such incidents happening in Tamil Nadu. Does it mean the Dravidan and Left movements have failed in the State?
4:59
Ravikumar: We have to discuss about the temple issue in
Pazhang Kallimedu of Nagappattinam Dist is also
5:00
Ravikumar: Silambur and Pazhang Kallimedu are different
5:00
Udhav Naig: Hello Ravi Kumar. Than you for joining the chat. For the benefit of our readers, can you give us a sense of what is happening in Pazhang Kallimedu right now and how VCK is involved in resolving the issue?
5:04
Comment From Karunakaran
when everyone can together work in a company, study in a college, Why can't we also pray together in a temple. Keeping age old traditions which were based on economic stand isn't worth to be discussed and followed now.
5:04
Comment From Karunakaran
When will kandadevi issue be resolved? Will there be a solution this year or the next?
5:05
Ravikumar: There is an Amman temple In kalimedu . It is very popular among the people of the district. originally the koil belonged to Pazhang Kallimedu village said the history of the temple
5:07
Udhav Naig: Ravi Kumar, what do you think about the local administration's decision to stop the festival?
Comment From Deepa
It appears the caste equation has moved out from Brahmin vs non-Brahmin to intermediate castes vs Dalits.
Ravikumar: it is already there, not a new one
Udhav Naig: Deepa, this is something Dalit intellectuals have been talking about for quite sometime now. However, I think it is fair to say that the system is still Brahminical.
5:11
Comment From Shriram
Inclusiveness is important not just for SC/STs: I am not a Brahmin and when I visited the Ramanuja shrine in Sri Rangam recently, the brahmins were given the first prasad. It was a thoroughly unpleasant feeling and I can understand the plight of SC/STs.
5:11
Comment From Guest
Hello everybody, whatever may be the history of temple or age long old traditions , the point of concern is why still when we are part of a new constitution from 1950 are facing such dalit tragedy?
5:12
Comment From Guest
in kerala we have resolve the cast entry system long back .. almost more than 45 years
5:12
Ravikumar: Udhav, It is unfortunate and a wrong move. It will increase the caste tension there. In the peace meeting the local MLA who is also a Minister in the present govt requested the caste hindu people to allot a day to Dalits but they refused. It is totally against law. The govt should initiate legal acation against them, But they cancelled the festival
5:15
Comment From roshan
support inter cast marriage is the best way. give reservation for lower cast people who are economical backward.
5:15
Comment From HKV
@Shriram Bramhins being given first prasad - the issue is more complicated than that. Only certain families' male members who have been singing the prabandam get this privilege. It is a very small subset of the bramhin community.
5:16
Comment From Dhaya
Govt not securing the rights of Dalits and not allowing to convert to other religion also
Ravikumar: Yes, Dalits are like a life convict without remission
5:17
Udhav Naig: Ravi Kumar,
The Dravidian parties have received flak for going soft on casteist forces. What do you think should the DMK, which is sitting in the opposition, do in such circumstances?
5:18
Comment From Guest
Ravikumar, I have read Omanthoor Reddiar, when he became the CM of the then Madras state created the HR Board and appointed two dalits to the Devasthanam of Thirupathi. Can it be made mandatory to have that representation in administration of all temples? Era.Murukan
5:18
Ravikumar: In Silambur of Ariyalur Dist Dalits are not allowed to enter the temple.But In pazhang Kallimedu Dalits are denied the right to perform Mandagapadi
5:19
Comment From Vinod
Aren't these temples part of HR&CE? If not, why can't government take over the administration? Wouldn't that solve the issue?
Ravikumar: This is not an isolated case , Dalits are discriminated in a number of temples controlled by HR&CE
Ravikumar: A temple in Palur near Cuddalore district also faces the same kind of problem
5:21
Comment From kaush
how can hinduism be an inclusive religion?
5:22
Comment From Guest
Dear Ravi Sir, just to know - since you are a field activist - how inclusive is place of worship other than temples? If we are talking of equality which I strongly believe why are we sticking our guns to a one faith? Why is not being opened up?
5:22
Comment From Prasad
Politicians are dividing communities,and our country in the name of Caste,creed, religion and colour.there is only one upper caste in India and that is POLITICIANS..
Ravikumar: this is simplistic
Comment From TO Bharat
This issue need to be treated on par with temple entry for women, honour killing of dalits and the twin tumbler system, which is still prevalent in may parts of TN.
5:25
Comment From HKV
Are caste-based parties fuelling tensions?
5:26
Udhav Naig: Ravi Kumar,
Conversion to another religion has long been considered a way for Dalits to escape persecution. But your party has said that conversion doesn't solve the problem. How do you see the wish of Dalit families to convert to Islam in this context?
Ravikumar: Ever citizen has the right to choose his faith. But our leader spoke about the danger of fragmentation. Dalits has only numerical power. COnversion dilutes it, is our complaint. More than that Casteist poison polluted all rerligions in India. Converting to some other religion is not a solution. Convert from religion to non religion is my suggstion
5:27
Comment From HKV
Bramhins don't participate much in Amman koil festivals anyway. But there is a growing resurgence in bramhins' interest in upholding the varnashrama dharma. While bramhins may be for temple entry, they would oppose priestly roles to non-bramhins.
Ravikumar: Yes, they opposed appointment of Archakas in Temples like Chidambaram. The Supreme Court which asks sane questions about allowing woman in Iyappan temple ruled against the take over of Chidambaram temple. It shows the plight of our judicial system
5:30
Comment From shruti
i have one simple question,why don't govt simply ban caste system,just banned this practice.why after almost 70 year of independence ,we have to discuss this time and time again.isn't facinating that vote banks are given the all limelight and yet all blames are put on upper caste.just ban caste practice
Ravikumar: If you want to ban caste you should ban religion too .Do You think it possible?
5:30
Comment From Anand
Government should not interfere with Temple administration. Involve only if there is discrimination. If church and mosque is free why involve in temples
5:34
Comment From Prasad
Ravikumar ...VCK is playing caste politics along with PMK.I wish I was born a Dalit because 40marks is enough to get into an engineering college, I don't have to pay anything for my studies and I can still get a government job even at the age of 40. Imaging the same situation for a OC candidate, 95 marks not enough to get into IIT,he doesn't get govt jobs because of reservations. This is the reality .Being born as Dalit is a boon when compared to be Brahmin nowadays
Ravikumar: Then why dont you became a Dalit and get this ' opportunities'? If you became Dalit you can understand the other side of the caste system.
5:35
Udhav Naig: Ravi Kumar,
The Dravidian parties have received flak for going soft on casteist forces in the past. What do you think should the DMK, which is sitting in the opposition, do in such circumstances?
Ravikumar: DMK should speak strongly against this kind of discriminations. DMK president has issued a good statement yesterday supporting reservation in private sector. I expect such a committed statement over the temple entry issue too
5:36
Comment From Guest
why are traditions stopped? government should conduct the festival. I remember reading an article about British East India company hosting temple festivals where the God was taken around with British flag.
Ravikumar: saving Democracy is more important than keeping tradition
5:38
Comment From Jacques
Urban regions are little better than rural areas. In many rural areas still there is prohibition based on caste. Recent fights in villages between 2 castes are an example. Caste system should be banned.
Ravikumar: Yes, comparatively urban areas are better. Former president Dr Kalam drafted a plan called "PURA" to improve the facilities in rural india. Without abolishing untouchability nobody can improve rural india
5:39
Comment From Guest
Unfortunately even in Kerala, there is some level of untouchability and string dress code enforced. Nobody other than Brahmins are allowed to do Poojas in temples. Devotees are asked not to touch priest. Devotees need to follow dress code and not even allowed shirts. Many temples even now doesn't allow non-Hndus
5:40
Comment From Guest
Where are the great Hindu leaders ? Our Ramagopalan and the like who talk on protecting Hinduism ? If this brazen discrimination continues, Hinduism is heading towards the dead end. Also, why Dalits still fight for temple entry. In Ambedkar words, any god that discriminates its people, should never be a God but a stone. It is high time that Dalit exclude themselves from Hinduism.
Ravikumar: Increasing violence against Dalits proves that everyday Dalits are loosing the reasons to believe in hinduism
5:41
Comment From Anandhi
Prasad... which part of the world you live in? The cut-offs are much much higher these days. And students are getting distinctions. This brahmins not getting enough is rhetoric. Show me one Dalit who got a government job at 40 years?
5:44
Comment From Anandhi
The Constitution does not discriminate anyone. We have enacted laws that criminalises discrimination. The State has seen progressive revolution in the name are Periyar. Then why is this still continuing?
Udhav Naig: This is a vexatious question asked time and again. Clearly, Dravidian movement seems to be a work in progress.
5:44
Comment From Thirumalai Arvind
In Hindusim, the Almighty never discriminates against Dalits. Whether it is Ravidas from the north or Nandanar from the South, they were kept at a highest pedestal. Caste Hindus should accept this fact.
5:45
Comment From Prasad
Anandhi... I might have exaggerated the age... but that is the reality. There is no equality in India ...If India needs to shine then we need to treat everyone equally and politicians shamelessly
5:47
Comment From Anandhi
Yes sir, you are right. If India needs to shine then we need to treat everyone equally. That is what we are also saying. Treat DALITS as EQUALS not as second class citizens. Forget marrying one will a caste-minded Hindu rent his house to a Dalit?
Ravikumar: Tamilnadu is the most casteist state in India. here the discrimination is very minute, diabolical and structural. This is the state where Dalits hold very little land
5:48
Comment From Jacques
There is a difference between reservations and caste based discrimination. I'm against reservation, deserved should be given priority. At the same time there shouldn't be a situation where one citizen is denied entry or basic rights. That is evil. people should be treated equally.
5:48
Comment From Kumar
How about bringing "Right to Workship"act like RTI, RTE,..etc
5:49
Comment From Ram
Perfect example is ther are very few dalit professors in our educational institutuions example-- IIT, Chennai. What is the reason for it? Dont everyone see this as discrimination against those community.?
5:49
Udhav Naig: Ravi Kumar, do you think that the Dalit protests, happening in Gujarat and elsewhere, is likely to spread across the country? Will it have an impact in TN?
Ravikumar: Yes definitely, the level of anger is increasing everyday. i asks Dalits to stop beating drums, removing dead animals, entering into manholes,
5:51
Comment From Thirumalai Arvind
There are innumerable instances in Hindu epics against discrimination. But few historians with an ulterior motive distort everything that is unique to Hindusim.
5:51
Comment From Santhosh
Ravi Kumar sir, what do you think is the solution to eliminate this menace of caste based discrimination? We are now in a situation where people belonging to the OC category feel Dalits are receiving a lot of special privileges and Dalits are feeling they are not getting enough. How can we put an end to this for good?
5:53
Comment From Sunny
From what I read in the newspaper about TN, the other communities more than the Brahmins oppose the entry of dalits into temples. I read honour killings by other communities - is the situation correct or are the news articles not reporting properly?
Ravikumar: Yes definitely, the level of anger is increasing everyday. i asks Dalits to stop beating drums, removing dead animals, entering into manholes,
5:51
Comment From Thirumalai Arvind
There are innumerable instances in Hindu epics against discrimination. But few historians with an ulterior motive distort everything that is unique to Hindusim.
5:51
Comment From Santhosh
Ravi Kumar sir, what do you think is the solution to eliminate this menace of caste based discrimination? We are now in a situation where people belonging to the OC category feel Dalits are receiving a lot of special privileges and Dalits are feeling they are not getting enough. How can we put an end to this for good?
5:53
Comment From Sunny
From what I read in the newspaper about TN, the other communities more than the Brahmins oppose the entry of dalits into temples. I read honour killings by other communities - is the situation correct or are the news articles not reporting properly?
Comment From Nishad
@ RAVI KUMAR SIR,We can find a cure to a disease, only if we recognize it as one. We should accept that caste-ism is a kind of racial discrimination or worse. We hardly see people being killed in the name of racism, barring the recent incidents in US. But how many lives have we lost in the name of caste in our country?. When will a government have the courage to look beyond these 'caste-vote politics' and have the courage to accept this menace as something worse than racism and ban it outright? Will/can parties come up together for such an issue?
Ravikumar: Casteism is also a racism is a old slogan. I say casteism is a form of terrorism. i asks the law enforcing agencies to treat the caste fanatics at par with terrorists
5:54
Comment From Thirumalai Arvind
In Ramayana, Lord Rama embraces Guha and says "Guhanodu Aivaraanom" (we are five brothers now). In Mahabharatha, a sage gets to know about "true dharma" from a butcher. Again in the south, we have Kannappa Nainar, a hunter, who got the grace of Lord Siva.
Ravikumar: Come out from quoting epics, this is the time to read our Constitution
5:57
Comment From hariharan PV
There is need for teaching Science and Scientific methods from the kindergarten to the 10+2 level in a very serious manner. Unless our society becomes rational in thinking, these wrong ideas of caste etc may not easily go away
Ravikumar: Didn't You know the space scintists who performs pooja on the days of launcing satellites?
5:58
Comment From Karuppu
Atheists and non believers have no reason to meddle in affairs of places of worship, just like a alcoholic cannot talk about virtues of temperance
Udhav Naig: Everyone must be concerned about human rights violations. Atheists have a responsibility to support the discriminated community, if you ask me.
5:58
Comment From Ram
People having these hatred towards minorities and dalit communities.. one cannot completely blame any political party as the problem starts in every home.. There are still some parents who ask their children not to eat in specific peoples home.. Ridiculous..
Ravikumar: Yes, people should change their mindset, but government has a duty to save democracy and law
6:01
Comment From Karuppu
Faith is ultimately a matter of personal choice. Rather than bother about inclusiveness in matters of faith what about inclusiveness in political parties ? How inclusive are they in TamilNadu?
6:01
Comment From Abhishek
Perfectly fine to perform Pooja before the space mission, however getting obsessed with an ideology that only some select have exclusive rights over god is not.
6:03
Comment From Guest
It is high time that Dalit should ignore and leave Hinduism and liberate themselves from its oppression. Dr. Ambedkar, the true father of modern India gave enough light and knowledge on how to break this oppression.
6:04
Comment From Jacques
casteism is not limited to Hinduism, even in christian community there are divisions based on castes. Only during marriages it is perfectly visible, otherwise is hiding.
Comment From Jacques
We need to educate our kids to treat everyone equally. In all possible ways bring them up unaware of what caste they are. Atleast next generation will be little better. As far as I see parents are injecting this caste into their kids, during marriage.
6:06
Ravikumar: Thanks to The Hindu team, particularly Udhav. TN is known as a land of social justice but the recent spurt in hate crimes tells a different story. TN needs a personality like EVR Periyar again to speak the evils of casteism among the hindus , but it has only some casteist self centred petty politicians . Hope against Hope!
6:06
The Hindu: We are nearing the end of the session. I request Mr. Ravi Kumar and Mr. Udhav Naig to give their final comments.
6:08
Ravikumar: Thanks to All
6:08
Comment From Nishad
@THE HINDU, MR RAVI KUMAR: Please dont restict this just to a live chat, we need action on the ground. I request Hindu to follow this up with exposing various caste practices in our country.