An open forum on Italian marines issue

No money to the Indian families should be paid. Instead offer a future to the fisherman
families by providing an education to their children. Perhaps come and study in Italy?

India signed the international treaties so why does not respect them?
Whats the point of signing anything if you are not going to respect
them?
Anyone breaking this rule should be expelled. No if or but.

I still dont understand the Indian State: last summer the Americans have killed an Indian fisherman (always by mistake) and all ended with an apology. Sri Lanka massacred (in the true sense of the word) poor Indian fishermen (and not by mistake) and always everything is silent. For this incident came a global problem! Why? But India is really a friendly state? Began to have serious doubts ....

Some of the comments from either side sounds irrational. Its like, one just wants to prove that his/her country is only right while the other is not. Just few questions that struck my mind while going through the comments. Are/Were India and Italy enemies? Why do we hype a situation in control when actually we try to satisfy our ego and pride. We are Human Beings and this feeling should stand before feeling of nationlaity. It makes no sense priortizing any other thing before 'Humanity'. There are two perspectives in this case, Indian and Italian. People make their choice and thats good as both nations are democratic. Everyone love his/her nation. But we should always try not to let the evil win over good. Just a request to all the people from both sides not to form any bad image of either of the countries as both the nations are great and will remain so. Even best friends fight some times but that only strengthens their bond. Lets hope and pray for stronger bond between India and Italy

I fully agre with Giuseppe and fully disagree with Alessandro. If
Alessandro does not care of our soldiers, I, Giuseppe, and most of
italians, do care very much. No matter how much they were paid, they
were commanded by our Governemnt to protect the Enrica Lexie and
represent Italy, that is also clearly evident as they wear the uniform
in any official occasion. I believe italians will not forget this case
too easily and the relationships Italy-India are likely to have been
damaged for ever.

To the italians and pseudo-intellectual Indians, consider the question of where the crime was committed.
1. the shots were fired from an Italian vessel,
2. two unarmed and passive fishermen were killed on an Indian vessel.
Which is the crime?

To the same people, the Kerala HC confirmed its jurisdiction and passed judgement. The Supreme Court of India confirmed the jurisdiction of the state of India, but set aside teh KHC decision with instructions to try the case under its own jurisdiction.

In my view, the SC is trying to delay trial so that a diplomatic (in both senses) solution is found. This is wrong - but the rich get special treatment.

I want to raise my protest against the conduct of the Indian authorities towards the two Italian Marò illegally detained in India.
A rule of international law in fact the alleged crime would have occurred on board an Italian ship in international waters: it is clear then, the lack of jurisdiction of the Indian judiciary. The very fact that more than a year after the event that the Indian judiciary has not yet ruled on the issue on lack of jurisdiction raised by the Italian Government is confirmation of the embarrassment in which that judiciary is.
The way in which the investigations are conducted on the fact, ousting the representatives of our country, there appears not to be correct and is unworthy of a modern legal culture.
Over 90% of Italians (as it appears from the polls) condemns the conduct of the Indian authorities, if this situation continues it will lead to negative consequences and difficult to reverse the opinion that the Italians will make on India and Indians, many of whom are diligently inserted into Italian society.

Good morning from Italy, do you really think we are thinking about two marines?
In Italy we have serious problems of everyday life, rather than think of two marines PAID (about 10.000$ at month) by our citizens but embarked on private ships for private business... ridiculous.
The question is if they were or not in international waters.

I'm a Swiss... so a "third" part.
Italian marines have to be clearly judged.
But the important fact is where... and it isn't possible that this decision toke so much time.
Italian and Indian have to seat together put the fact and apply the international law.
If in international water must be in Italy, if in indian water in India.

Sir,

The hullabaloo created by the political parties in India and
orchestrated with equal vigour by the Indian media in the la Italian
marine case smacks of immaturity and miserable ploy to score political
brownie points in view of the impending elections.

Firstly we must analyze and ask ourselves if an act in line of their
duty and legitimate at that by two men in uniform even if it
unfortunately resulted in the death of two fishermen tantamount to
willful homicide and brutality as is being made out in India. Perhaps
the only reasonable accusation the Italian marines may be charged with
is use of excessive force in relation to the situation.

Secondly when it comes to the earlier decision of the Italian
government not to send back the marines to face trial in India may
have arisen out of genuine concern for their two citizens. Look at the
inordinate delay Indian judicial proceedings are ridden with. The
Mumbai blast case took twenty years to see a final judgment.

commendable effort by The Hindu and La Repubblica. I would like to
understand from some fire arms expert about the range of the machine gun
used by the marines and its capability to actually aim at the fishing
boat crew. In my view, the fishing boat had come too close to the
tanker(in the range of 50 to 100 metres), which had triggered off panic
resulting in opening fire by the marines. It's really a sad case of
mistaken identity causing the mistake by the marines.

While I am an Indian, I do not endorse the stand taken by Indian
government and public in this case. The first thing to understand that
this is not a criminal case. The Italian marines did not "murder" the
fishermen for any personal reason. They were charged with a
responsibility for defending the ship against pirates and acted in
good faith albeit in bad judgement. Such things commonly happen in any
law enforcement / security scenario. Why, even in India the Police or
Army is routinely charged with killing of innocents in the name of
criminals / terrorists. The members of Armed forces are specifically
exempt from any prosecution by civilian authorities if the alleged
crime has been conducted in line of the duty. It is hypocritical for
India to insist on trying the marines as criminals when its own army
personnel are protected against such charges by the AFPSA etc. A
mature approach would be to let the Italians try the marines but to
insist that the trial be impartial.

Both India and Italy deserve credit for avoiding a major fiasco and loss
of legitimacy as meaningful powers in the eyes of the world. Now, they
should concentrate on ascertaining all the facts and doing what is just,
setting aside jingoism and power play. Otherwise, both will be losers.

Hello! I ask you a few questions, please answer me and let me understand your point of view!
1 - because India dont respect the Vienna Convention?
2 - because India dont want an international arbitration?
Thanks to all

As Federico pointed out our soldiers (believe it or not) are not Rambos. They have kids and think about their families first, than about the rest, they are not bloodthirsty criminals, NO. Violence is not our national philosophy of life. Period. We value well-being, family, food etc..not war and the likes. Do you really believe they started shooting without warning them, disobeying international rules??? They are professionals, not movie actors!! And to those saying 'without warning the 'fishermen': how do you know??? Were you there? Do you really know if they had weapons or not? Piracy exist in those waters!! Everything must still (after 1 year) be proven in this process... Then: do we trust your judiciary system? We see there is too much pressure from Indians on the judges, too much hate from the people... plus: jail health conditions in India are very though for us, to say the least.. India is a rich country, but 'common' living conditions are very bad. That's why we are worried.

Please keep the two killers in your prison. italian media describe them as two eroes

Is not a matter of int. water or jurisdiction, is only a matter of evidence. There is NO evidence that the two fisherman have been killed by the two Italians Marines shooting from an Oil-Tanker. Not to be unrespectful towards this tragedy but I belive that all the evidences of the case have been bended/created by internal political issues.
The real killers have to be found somewhere else.

Hopefully all parties concerned will put this unfortunate incident
behind us and move on to re-establish normal friendly relations
between India and Italy. Clearly there was an error of judgment on the
part of the Italian Foreign Minister. It is to Italy's credit that
their Prime Minister stepped in to enforce his country's international
obligations. India for its part must co-operate and ensure speedy
justice in this case. Dragging on the judicial process for years or
decades is out of the question.

On another note, it is time that India took the same steps to ensure
that Pakistan based terrorists are brought to book. We have to make
the return of Dawood Ibrahim and his cohorts a condition of any talks
on normalization of relations with Pakistan. Failing which, US co-
operation should enlisted to capture the Don by any means. It is
intolerable that this man should reside openly in a country that has
the gumption to deny his very existence on their soil.

Unfortunately, the evidence that has been killing them is scarce.
Furthermore, it is said that your poor fishermen sianio not really pirates.
Furthermore, the fact indicated by the Italians took place in the afternoon while the Indian said in the evening. And the Italians said they had only fired warning shots into the water. In the evening, a Greek ship rejected a pirate attack near the place indicated by the Indian fishermen, then place and now matched the fact indicated by the Indians. Indian authorities say there have been other reports.
Indian authorities have done everything possible to shift the blame Italians omitting autopsy, making weapons test surface. Pioi have delayed court hearings several times with a thousand excuses.
It was also clarified that the Italian ship was in international waters so that India qullo called "right" is a usurpation. The pirates were, the captain greek admitted the attack and immediately rejected.
Chauvinism is all Indian.

Both Italian and Indian governments are highly corrupted and unable to manage the situation. It is clear that both populist governments abuse the situation for economical and political return. Nobody is interested in the lives of the two Italian soldiers, as nobody cares about the two sadly lost lives of the Indian fishermen. What governments care is about the "good image" of their own country.

Outside of Italy I work with Indians everyday. To us, Indian and Italian citizens living outside of local propaganda, it is clear neither the Indian nor the Italian government will try to unveil the truth about this case. A third, more equilibrated organism is necessary to properly solve the situation.

Unless we all are specialists in international and military rights and regulations, as it seems reading too many online comments about this case.

A possibily quick reply to V.Suresh
1) Nothing against, if in accordance with international conventions/treaties.
2) All reports I read locate the incident at 20.5 nautical miles from India. Then
UNCLOS places the event outside the territorial waters (where coastal states have
almost full jurisdiction) and inside in the contiguous zone (where coastal state laws
apply to custom, fiscal, immigration and sanitary activities only -UNCLOS art.33-).
There is no agreed definition of "Indian waters" (or other countries' waters): also
the Economic Exclusion Zone is somewhat "national" but the coastal state's
responsibilities and rights are well defined for all zones and this kind of incident is
among those which can be prosecuted in territorial waters only.
3) They should be sent to India, in accordance with UNCLOS. Italy did the same
with US pilots who killed civilians during an exercise (in accordance with NATO
SOFA)
4) and 5) Agree.
They should be TRIALLED first. Punished if found guilty

I am Italian . The behaviour of Italian government is just a SHAME.
They probably still believe India is some kind of 3rd world servant
ex-colonial country .
Generally speaking it is a good example of European decadence.
No wonder that Europe's role in international politics is ZERO.

As repeatedly stated on this thread, politics on both sides - but I
dare say, more on the Italian side at this time - is not helping to
find a reasonable conclusion to this unforunate accident.
And missdirected national pride, boosted by incomplete information,
adds salt to the wounds.
The case was lost as soon as the Italian ship entered Indian
territorial waters, swallowing Indian's authories bait. The status of
our marines whas not clearly defined, there was no clear
internationally-recognized mandate to operate under. To assign them to
escort ships nevertheless was the haphazard choice of the then
ministry of defence.
And when all seemed to start working in the right direction (easier
jail terms, visit to Italy, less pressure from Indian media), a couple
of geniuses sitting in our government, decided to undo all the good
that diplomats made.
Unexpectedly (for Italian standards), Mr. Terzi, minister of Foreign
Affairs, just resigned. And this is a good news

This case also highlights the fact that as long as India maintains the death penalty in
its statutes, it will be difficult to extradite foreign offenders to the country. Barring
the USA, most democratic countries have abolished the death penalty and it is time
that India did so too.

A lot of thoughts flow on the fate of the two marines. True they did their duty and no one can dispute that. The dispute is that their shots killed the two fisherman. Then when the Indian Coast Guard intervened and resolved the issue, I am assuming that it was in Indian territorial waters. But then local politics weighed in and the ship was asked to dock in Kochi harbour. Fait accompli -- Indian waters and Indian fisherman (assumed innocent!). So the marines have to face the law courts in India. If I committed any heinous crime it is natural that I will be asked to report to a law court of the country. These marines must know they are not prisoners of war and therefore Geneva Convention cannot be applied. All I can wish is that speedy judgement is delivered and resolved. I am sure adverse judgement will be challenged and a different tune will be paid. And arbitration? Well the less said the better!

A welcome initiative from two respected newspapers. The incident itself was a stupid error on the part of probably trigger happy marines. The error has a price since human lives have been lost. There must be retribution and compensation. We hope that the special court will take into account all aspects of the case and deliver a judgement that will honour the Indian judicial system. There is no room for vengeance. But justice has to be done and seen to be done. Let us be done with politicians playing to the gallery and the press of both countries building up sentiment against peoples.

When jingoism rears its ugly head, truth and justice become casualties. Most of the
Italian commentators here unconditionally defend the Italian marines whilst the
Indians unconditionally defend the Indian claims. Italians assert that the ship was in Italian waters, Indians dispute this. The Italian reaction has been conditioned by the partial acquittal of the US Air Force pilots in the 1998 Cavalese disaster when their plane severed a cable and a cable car plunged to earth killing 20 tourists. In that case, NATO rules stipulated that only US courts had jurisdiction, not Italy, much to the chagrin of the general Italian public & media. India tries to show that it is not a banana republic and flexes its muscle, knowing fully well that the Italians unlike say the Sri Lankans have a conscience and will cough up some money. Never mind that more Indian fishermen are killed or tortured by the Sri Lankan navy against which India does not demand an iota of compensation.
Sad indeed !

Italy & India - 2 flailing states trying hard to get the world to not regard them as
failing states

Congratulations for this initiative!
Form my Italian perspective I think that the way the investigation in Kerala was carried out raised a lot of concerns even in 'neutral' people. It appeared as if this Chandy, while campaigning for the elections, was also leading the investigation by making statements everyday (this cannot happen in a country with an independent judiciary). Meanwhile a lot of issues were swept under the carpet.
Why was the doctor who did the first autopsy on the dead fisherman revealing that the holes seemed to be caused by 7mm soviet made bullets (and not by 5 mm NATO standard bullets used by the Italian army) ordered not to give any interview?
Why were the bodies of the fishermen immediately cremated and buried after the autopsy?
Why was the boat of the fishermen sunk in the waters (before being retrieved) so that any potential valuable trace of anything was cancelled?
Why in the inital days the owner of the boat gave three different accounts of the events?

The crux of the matter is the racist attitude displayed by the Italians, who seem to conflate Somali pirates with Keralite fisherman ! Nobody seems to question this. This fact simply does not register with Italians, who feel entitled to their privilege.

Indians on the other hand seem way to involved with constantly shifting 'facts' and have reacted (correctly in my opinion) as though its a slap in the face by the cousins of their old colonial masters !

The Italian Marines attack on two Indian Fishermen has been in limelight offlate. There are some facts that the responsilbe Italian bodies need to understand.
Point1: What is wrong in Italian Marine facing trail within the boundaries of Indian Judiciary?
Point2: Since the killing took place on Indian waters, surely the Marines needs to be tried at court as per Indian Penal Code.
Point3: Lets reverse the wind & assume that the Italian Fishermen were killed by Indian Marines. What would be the reaction? Would you be so generous in letting out the soldiers at first Place?
Point4: There is no need for the intervention of third party to probe this incidcent or taking action for this course.
Point5: Finally,we Indians share a very healty relation with Italy, don't spoil it. War is not the solution. Let Indians & Italians share a footsie kind of relationship.
Let the Marines be punished for their offence, done knowingly or unknowingly. Let the law take its own course.

Hello my Indian as well as Italian friends! It seems that the case has
been exaggerated from both sides. Both India and Italy are democratic
countries and they should resolve the issue in a reasonable way. I
believe there are always ways for negotiation. Both countries should
talk more about trade, education and cultural exchanges instead of
killing. I would like if both countries come together in helping each
other instead of confronting with each other.
Greetings from India!

As I understand, the jurisdiction has not been finalised and the court
would decide if its an international incident or within Indian
jurisdiction. I am very sure both parties would present their
arguments and evidences on their arguments. I urge my Italian friends
to keep faith in our judiciary.
I have been to Italy once and was touched by the friendship I was
offered along with breath-taking culture and architecture that I
witnessed. (Food was amazing too but as a vegetarian, my choices were
limited :)).
As many commentators pointed out, excessive jingoism is not beneficial
in this case and I appreciate this forum to reduce our differences in
this case.

Indian Govt takes good steps to bring the Italian marines. I congrats the Govt to show our India's power. But Why central Govt don't take any action about the Indian fisher man killed by SriLanka. is the fisher man from Tamil Nadu region? the dead slow steps by Indian Govt. India Please consider Tamil People also Indians.

IMHO the matter would have resolved with minimal outcry were the
Italians patient and hadn't attempted outsmarting the courts - while
I appreciate that the "length" of trial here is scary for Europeans,
this case, AFAIK, is being given due priority. And rarely do suspects
get such vacations!
While its true that the politics whipped up the sentiments here, my suspicion was that once the politics drains out - as it had already for most part - the courts will give a reasonable verdict.
As a citizen of India, what irks me is the assumption that the courts here will be ignorant or even sentimental, unwilling to acknowledge genuine circumstances. What makes Italian courts so sacred and immune to sentimental manipulations? IMHO, this implicit 'racism' is doing more harm than good.
As an individual I do feel that we have already lost two young lives and any pride is not worth ruining another two, particularly if they did nothing wrong. Hope that the courts too understand this.

I am very surprised , most of Italian arguing that marines have no idea
about Indian fisherman. But i think its easy to understand for anyone .in a
big army ship they have a lot of gadgets to see fisherman. I think their is big
difference between pirates and fisherman. Pirates have guns, bombs etc but
fisherman have only net. So if they want they can understand. One Italian
also argue that what indian fisherman do there. I want to tell all of you that
every indian is free, independent in indian region.

I think the matter has been dealt with in a clumsy manner by both countries.
Nevertheless, 2 people have been killed, even if by mistake. If an Indian did this on Italy's shores would she/ he just have been pardoned and sent home because it was a "mistake"? I don't think so. It is for the court, and only the court, to decide what should be done now. And as for the matter of jurisdiction, the Supreme Court of India is a well respected body across the world and has suggested that the incident took place in "contiguous waters", if not India's territorial waters. These and other procedural matters are to be considered by the special court set up to try the case. I am happy (perhaps not the right word) that the court has been set up n Delhi yesterday and will begin hearings now. Give it a chance. No country with any sense of self-respect or dignity can allow its citizens to be killed by foreign soldiers (when their countries are not at war) and simply stand by while they go home.

Why was no warning given to the fishermen and why no distress signal
was sent before shooting down the fishermen?? why does Italy ask for
marines to come back for voting, if it can arrange a ballot vote, does
the Italian ambassador go to Italy everytime to vote?? Is it fair on
Italy's part to justify the crime by saying it happend in international
waters??

Mr. Ambassador was being highly insensitive by openly admitting that to
raise the stake of bargain, Italy first refused to send the marine,
isnt it shameful to say this sort of thing in public?? Any peace
loving, rational Italian which include my Italian friends in Sweden
would accept his country's mistake and wont be hypocritical about it.
May justice prevail and hope our respective govt solve this diplomatic
tussle.

So the Marines 'deduced' the 2 fishermen were 'pirates' based on their appearance and most Italians simply accept it and justify the Marines action ?! Most Indians are simply shaking their heads at the blatant hypocrisy. Imagine if Indian Marines had shot 2 Italians suspecting them of being mafiosos ! The international outrage this would unleash is hard to imagine.

The fundamental problem here is way beyond the actions of the marines and the reactions on either side. It has to do with the colonial mindset and its repercussions on either side. The Italians simply cannot look at Indians as anything other than 'subjects' given their colonial history in Africa. Indians cannot ignore the colonial mindset on the part of the Italians as the colonial wounds are still fresh in our minds.

This basic trust deficit between the 2 nations needs to be bridged and i dont see that happening anytime soon.

The questions are:
1.Was there a challenge by the marines before they resorted to firing on fisherman?
and was the challenge was understood by the fisherman before advancing to the Italian
Ship?
2.Did the marines wait for the fishermen to respond, to any challenge by the Marines?
3.If the marines are not guilty and right as per universally accepted self defence, was
there any threat to life or property to get that right of self defence?
4.Last but not the least, if the marines were not guilty why did they offer one crore
rupees as compensation?

Situation could have been avoided by both sides . On Indian side, the
case should not have been allowed to drag on that led to Italian Govt.
losing faith in the judicial process .Is it not true Justice delayed is
denied ? India could have agreed to trial by Italian Courts and sought
some right to send some representaive to monitor the case in Italian
Court , and also press for compensation.May be it was just an accident
!Much publicity in India and hostility and bad press for marines
vitiating the trial itself.It is best that they are tried by Italian
Court. After all, we are dealing with a friendly country !Besides, our
courts are already saddled with with backlog of decades.No one appears
to be lo0king at the cost to the public in this high profile
case.unfortunate, so much hostility not only between people on both
sides, but also between two friendly governments.could have been
avoided.Let us do everything to repair the damage now.

this case is been dealt wrongly from both sides...it was just an
accident and counted murder...it should be charged with culpable
homicide not amounting to murder...involvement of politics has already
diluted the course of justice..now this case has become a ball of
political fruit for both..a neutral arbiter should decide whether the
accident occurred in INdia's territorial water or in International
water then further legal course of action should be decided..now this
has become just another case to ascertain political supremacy which is
not good for these democracies.....

Italy says that incident happened in international waters while India says otherwise.This is the cux of the matter.This needs further investigation.

As it is, marines are being treated with kid gloves.I shudder just when i think, what would have been the set up if the culprits would have been indians.

I would answer a few questions put forth by some Italians and am not
at all offended by the reference to Third world countries. At least we
behave responsibly, but Italy doesn't act like a developed country but
a wannabe uni-polar power.
The marines thought the fishermen to be pirates. Isn't it their duty
to verify before pulling the trigger?How can not this be called murder
by those trigger happy marines
Being on duty doesn't allow marines to pull the trigger on anyone they
wished and get away easily.
It is not in India's interests to have two Indians killed, and it is
considered rather unsafe than safe.
India is surrounded by unfriendly neighbors yes, who will only be
emboldened to get aggressive if we pose as such soft states. EU has
enough on it's plate without worrying about India's neighbors.
I would like to salute people like Luca who have stated the obvious. I
hope he speaks the truth about Italians unhappy with the breach of
trust as any proud citizen would feel.

What if the incident would have happened near Italy & an Indian Ship mariens have shot dead italian fisherman..? Will Italy show same composure? & let Indian mariens be freed & tried in India? Would compensaton by India to family of italian fishermans acceptable to Italians?..
As the Italy favouring & hesitating to tried Italian mariens in India, its a case which proves itself if mariens are guilty, Mariens know that fishermans are not armoured, thought whatever they do would be handled as if they performed their duty & killed pirates if questioned. Thought there is no justice in other country than Italy.
Mariens must be tried in India & should be guilty of what they did was surly against humananity. No monetary compensation equates with human life be it an Indian or Italian.

hello, I think that if a person fails to pay for his mistakes,
if an Indian, in Italy, is arrested for 'is presumed to have committed a crime, it is first of all condemned by newspapers only because it' considered 'different', not Italian, then is processed.
We Italians have to think about how racist we are and what we do not respect the laws normally!
if an Indian soldier had shot an Italian fisherman, I do not think there would be so many Italians to be in solidarity with the soldiers, indeed, would ask for a strong effort!

We Italians, we must always be the most 'smart.
soldiers should be tried in India, according to Indian law, are not heroes, as in Italy we want to believe, the heroes are the people who die every day doing his job in the silence of the opinion of the world! 'cause no one called heroes those fishermen or workers who die every day in factories for 4 money and give food to their children!

Heroes do not use weapons, the heroes use the words.

1. The marines were on a private duty on a cargo ship, paid by a private contractor. They were not soldiers discharging sovereign duty on behalf of Italy.
2. The marines did not get any order from the ships captain, nor was the master of the ship informed before the actual shooting.
3. The ship was in contiguous zone (20.5 nautical miles), and according to UNCLOS, India has the right to engage in hot-pursuit if a crime is suspected to occur in this zone
4. No signals of an attempted piracy reported to the world navies, or to the Indian coast-guard, or was registered in the mercury charts prior to the coast-guard intervention
5. SUA and UNCLOS conventions indicate that India and Italy have overlapping jurisdictions in this case. However, practicality and common-sense indicates that jurisdiction falls to the country that reaches the alleged perpetrators first, subject to the principle of aut dedere aut judicare
6. Criminal liability cannot be absolved by cash payment in India

Dr K V Peter you get the point. I am agree with you 1000% ....The International Comunity is looking us (India and Italy).....shocked ! Our Politicians and Governaments Authorities are loosing trust and respects. This is the final truth.

Dear Indian friends
I am happy to see that most of the comments are much more reasonable
of the inappropriate statements of politicians on both sides.
I will try to make a comment from the Italian side.

I do not believe there is a mistrust in the Indian judiciary system
per se, however the heated comments made by Kerala politicians were
seen as an attempt to influnce the court; also the very long number of
hearings in Kerala gave the feeling the process was somewhat unusual,
not to forget that the Supreme Court took several months to publish it
decision.

Almost every person I know think that the decision of the Ministry for
foreign affairs to keep the marines in Italy was wrong (to use a
gentle word) and most people would like him to resign because of what
happened. Conversely, many people are outraged by the decision to
impose that the Italian ambassador do not to leave the country
(irrespective of the subtle distinctions on sovereign immunity).

i am italian. i love so much Indian culture and people. my travels in India have allowed me to understand the values ​​of your ancient and recent history. I think correct the position of the Indian magistracy, but I hope that my compatriots may have a no severe justice. I hope to return to India and not to be afraid to say that I am Italian.My respects

@chet ... Whether right or wrong, this is what I, and millions of Italians, feel. Our Governement has stressed since the beginning that the accident happened in international waters and the jurisdiction is of Italy. India has a quite different position. Italy has suggested an international arbitration too but if India in no way wants to understand Italy's reasons and just want to prosecute our soldiers, I really wonder what our Government should do.

Unfo have to tell that India, notwithstanding to be one of the biggest economic country in the world, remain ''defacto'' a third world country. It is absolutely against all the internationals laws that our soldiers were in the international seawater and that they acted against somebody that were near the ship, explain why these ''fishermen'' were just near a so big ship and in the middle of the sea. Suppose that these ''fishermen'' simply were not fishermen but pirates.

I want to highlight some important facts about this incident:
1. Italian Marines opened fire against Indian Fishermen mistaken them
as Pirates. So as per incident it was not a murder, it is an
unfortunate incident or an error from the part of Italian Marines. So
during the judicial proceedings, the word "MURDER" should not be used
against the Marines.
2. Both Marines at the time of Incident, were on their Duty (were not
on vacations or their private affairs). So nobody can neglect their
military status. It means these Marines have Right to be judged by
Military court. So Special Court should recommend this case to Italian
Military Court or some International court under U.N.O.
3. This Marines were on commercial vessel against the pirates. So it
is also in the favour of India to have it's protected waters, for the
commercial activities.
4. India, as per surrounded by the regional threats by it's
neighbours, should be aware of, how the European Union is important
for its future strategies.

I am really saddened by this story. Italian, I have been to India and count to get there soon. I am supporting an indian kid financially and I repute Indian kitchen faboulous, as well as the architectural heritage and the lanscape.
The matter has been dealt badly on both sides, each represented by a government not of the neeeded stature. Problems: 1. Confusion on the hierarchy of the soldiers (the army, the ship owner). 2. The place (international waters ?) of the ship at the time of killing. 3. The displacement of the ship in indian waters. 4. The presence of a Greek ship. 5. The role of the fishermen. 6. The ballistic proofs. 7. The Kerala jurisdiction, et caetera et caetera. Could not the two governemnts set a commission starting from scratch and get soon a recommendation on how the case should be dealt?

Even today there was a news item in Hindu "Judiciary must inspire trust in litigants" and Madras High Court Judge V. Dhanapalan advocates Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADS) system for parties to arrive at an amicable solution instead of prolonging the cases in Indian court for decades.

Italian govt regretted for the incident and paid 1 crore to the victims family each to enalbe them to rebuild in April 2012. The matter should have been settled then itself. And if there is any procedural wrong doing on the marines part, the data collected from the ship and investigation report submitted to the court should have been enough to conclude and I dont understand why should they be detained for years. It took 3 months for the honourable supreme court to pronounce the judgement, after the arguments were over. This clearly shows the incompetancy of our judicial system. No wonder we have more than 12 lakhs of cases pending and poor people languishing in jail.Wealthy always have escape route

Italy and India has a very good relation in all sense of the word. We
have so much in common from our love for a particular sport, to crony
capitalism and corruption in politics. But what could have handled
fairly smooth was turned into an Incident by the Italy Government. It
fumbled in its approach towards this incident. The act of not
respecting the Indian Supreme Court order and now sending back the
marines show that Italy has played this game very badly. As an Indian
I wanted to know about the public sentiment in Italy regarding this.
Both countries were grappled with the options left in this issue and
wanted to look genuine to the public.

India and Italy need each other for trade, culture, religion and historical ties. The killing of two fishermen by Italian Marines is not an intention to kill but probably a mistaken identity and carelessness on the part of two marines wherever it happened national or international waters. Italy said against the oath undertaken at the highest Indian court by its Ambassador but stuck to its commitment at the last minute by agreeing to send back the Marines. India could have withdrawn its Ambassador in Rome rather than invalidating the diplomatic immunity which raised international eye brows. I still vividly remember 30 or 40 years ago an official of Libyan or Iranian Embassy in London shot dead a a female police constable from the Embassy and UK had to let the culprits go Scots free because of diplomatic immunity. So between friendly countries diplomacy wins but is very sensitive and complicated as this case is.

The two marines were on duty to guard the ship from attack by pirates.The two fisher men were suspected as pirates and were shot dead.Now the political and media drama start with the CM of Kerala in the cetre stage as though this is an issue challenging the soverignity of the nation.Every day fishermen from Tamil Nadu are killed by Sri-Lankan Navy;Indian Soldiers in the boarder killed by Pakistanis and not to mention the attack from Chinese.One more enemy nation is created as though we are in short of them.Delay in delivery of justice in India is matter of concern.By attacking Italy, the whole aim is targetted to one person in India and in that trap Kerala CM is also fallen.It took more then one year to bring back the abducted ship crews from Somalia, many killed and maimed and many more are languishing.Had Indian ships protected by marines like Italians, the sad plight could have been avoided.Let a speedy and time bound trial be now done.Thw whole world is watching.

Assessments of emotions and facts are needed.
1.) Italians need not worry. Death penalty will not be given because this is not rarest of the rarest cases.
2.) Italians should refrain from words like "War". Both countries have capabilities.
3.) It is still a dispute whether this happened in Indian or international water.
4.)Piracy is not an issue in this part of Indian ocean so why Italian soldiers were so jumpy and fired about 28 rounds without being fired back and without any warning?
5.)Italian soldiers cannot be considered as soldiers as they were on a private contract not as an italian soldiers aboard a italian navy ship.
6.) Italian soldiers have been given very comfortable living and food facilities which even common man in India doesn't have. And this kind of cases takes 20 years normally. It is a special treatment that we are giving them a still relatively faster trial.
7.) Finally blood money cannot be justice. This is not saudi arabia monarcy. This is democracy.

@ Federico.....I think you are exaggerating when you say that Indians are showing
excessive hostility.....no doubt the public is furious, it is because your government's decision not to send marines to face the trail.
If Italy thinks that India does not have jurisdiction over the incident then they would have taken a strong stand since the trial begun a year ago but Italy never did that.....cause they were thinking that the will bribe the court out and there wont be any problem....
Secondly the issue got bigger than it was by Italian government decision to go against an undertaking given to the highest court of the land that is the Supreme
court of the biggest democracy in the world............

I would like to know the general concern of Italians in this whole
process? Is it lack of trust in Indian Judiciary system? I would
assure you that Indian judiciary acts independently and never
influenced by political system at higher courts. Is it that the
accused are Italian soldiers? It should be noted that they are on a
commercial mission and one should not discriminate based on their
position when the crime is committed. Is it that whether India has
jurisdiction? Ask yourself whether the same incident happens near
Italy waters with Indian soldiers as accused wouldn't Italian
government do the same?

@mhoomh: Even if Indian authorities give them death penalty this will never result to war. With a weak economy Italy cannot afford war. Thousands of Indians and italians are serving prison sentences in both nations, so should this amount to war? NO. But the incident happened in Indian waters so they are liable for punishment and prosecution in India not in Italy. If talks is the solution then we are ready and if war then we are more than capable and ready too.

Fact 1: Two Italian marines shot dead two Indian fisherman without any provocation.

Fact 2: No criminal motive behind the shooting, at best a case of misunderstanding. An deadly accident due to oversight.

Suspicious part: Did the incident occur in international or territorial waters? No clear answer yet. There are different versions from different people.

Complexity: Rather than dealing with it as an accident, which it really was, politicians and people from both sides have raised an excessive emotional pitch.

The Italians are getting a real taste of Indian judiciary, which is the real pain. It's been over a year now. Elsewhere in the civilized world the verdict would've been out six months back. India now says it will form a special court, but that is already disputed by the Kerala CM.

The winners: Media! Now they have something more to grab and munch for a while.

We have upheld our national pride by securing the return of the two marines. Let us also secure justice for all Indians and Italians. Just another incident to demonstrate fairness of Indian judicial system.
Vande Mataram!

The Italians are being unnecessarily nervous in their reaction. True
their marines are detained. But they are also being allowed a great
degree of freedom that normal prisoners are not being allowed. The
Italians should not be expecting their people to be allowed to go home
after shooting a couple of innocent folk in a country. Such
expectations are ridiculous. We have a law and procedure which will
take its course. The Italians are doing themselves a disservice by
engaging in such antics. Right now the Supreme Court of India is
furious, the political class wont be able to do anything in the face
of so much public and media pressure even if they want to. To top that
the so called proof that the marines are innocent comes from the
report submitted by these marines themselves, not a independent third
party. GPS readings are being offered as proof. Question, who took
these readings? Can anyone corroborate? When were these readings
taken?

I have been following the case since the first minutes and it is not clear to me what actually happened that day yet. Even assuming that our two marines killed the two indian fishermen, it seems to me and, it should seem to everybody, clear that it was a drammatic mistake. Our soldiers are neither criminals, nor "Rambo" , have families, were commanded to protect the vessel, and most likely, they would have prefered to remain in Italy rather than leaving with the Enrica Lexie. What laves me really astonished is the level of hate of a part of indians to our soldiers, that is not really typical of indians, as far as I know them.

There's always a lot of hot air on both sides based on incomplete understanding of the facts.
1. How and what happended is yet to be determined in - yet many Italians seem to believe their country/army's version!!!!
2. The Kerala High Court tried the marines and its judgement was:
A) The Italian marine's lied about reporting the incident, as required by international law.
B) The incident happened in Indian EEZ which confers the India with certain rights. including jurisdiction.
Throughout this trial, the court treated the marines generously, alowing a home visit for XMAS!
3. For the purposes of good diplomatic relations and Indians' sense of (misplaced) fair play and technical completeness, the Supreme Court set aside the Kerala judgment on the basis that the incident occured outside the 12 mile EXCLUSIVE zone. However, the SC confimed Indian jurisdiction within the 24 mile CONTIGUOUS zone, thus requesting a special court to be established to retry the marines.
The rest is history!

Capital punishment is bad when if it is given by the Indian judiciary.
But, not when awarded by the Italian marines to presumed pirates
(Indians here)! Strange European logic.

The Italian government's insistence on getting assurances that the death penalty
wont be sought for the Marines sends an important message to India. Italy is a
signatory to the Council of Europe's Convention on Human Rights and stringently
applies its provisions. Among other things, the Convention prohibits application of
the death penalty, torture and inhuman jail conditions. If India wishes to
successfully prosecute foreigners accused of crimes or request their extradition to
India, it has to bring its judicial and penal systems in line with the majority of
countries in the civilised world. India has to abolish the death penalty and
seriously look at the conditions in its jails which indeed breed criminals.

I laud Italy for having insisted on the non-application of the death penalty and a
speedy trial. The marines made a mistake but they are by no means bloodthirsty
hounds that sections of the Indian media have made them to be.

Lets us move on.

Dear Italian Friends,
Browsing through the comments, I feel one of the main concern of many
of you were the Death Penalty which might be awarded to these two
marines. If Indian courts gives death penalty to ever murder accused
then their would be execution every day. Eventhough I'm not legal
expert but I can say it with confidence that Death Penalty is given in
a rarest of rare cases where the murder is done premeditated and in a
gruelsome way which is not the case here. So Death Penalty is out of
question.

Second concern been whether the case has to be tried by an
International court since it has happened in international waters. Now
I've gone through many articles and there is no clarity on who should
try this case. The closest argument is, since India(citizen) being the
victim and the first to apprenhend the accused it has got the right to
try the case.

Third issue was the marines being a Italian soldiers and Vienna
convention on treating soldiers. The two Marines were guarding a private cargo vessel, like anyother
security guards. So they are not representing sovereign country at the
time of incident.

The final point is whether it is a marine or an layman or whether it
has happened in pirates infected high seas or in land at our work
place. If an death or injury to human being has happened due to gross
negligence then that person has to face the law.

Having said this what happened to the Captain of the ship who has
ordered the shooting, he should be accused No.1.

As Indians we still have belief in our courts, eventhough sometimes we
feel otherwise.Let us hope that this situation is resolved sooner than
later and justice is served.

Its a tragedy for the both sides and I sincerely wish this situation
is resolved as just as it should be and similar situation doesn't
arise in future.

Thanks
Gladwin

In the end this incident will show the co-operation between two great democracies, both ancient milestones in the evolution of the human race, that of India and of Rome. It is by struggle and conciliation that respect is forged and human lessons learnt between great civilisations and we are but spectators to the process.

Italy has set the great example to the world and shown it is a country of democratic honour by conceding to returning the Marines for the trial, now India must also demonstrate the integrity of its justice system by conducting a fair and humane treatment of them.
The true blame for the tragedy lies not with the Marines nor with the fishermen, nor with the governments, but with the evil nature of the pirates who attack so mercilessly the defenceless shipping for their own amoral purposes.

By practicing greater peace through the study of yoga and other fine arts, can true mind-peace and acceptance be achieved.

THe mistakes on Indian side:
1. The incident happened in Feb 2012, its March 2013. Why are they taking so long
to deliver a verdict on something which needs to go to fast track courts in order to
get final answers and relief for the families of both the sides?
2. The marines should never have been tried in Kerala court, because it is an national
level matter, so Supreme court in Capital deals with all these cases. Also, there was
or is no need to setup special courts to solve the crisis. THe law in India already has
guidelines to try international criminal cases like this.
3. Do not deal this case like any other criminal cases in India, slow, frustrating
painful court proceedings. Another biggest mistake, keep politicians away. Agreed,
that it is a matter of diplomatic and international relations, but political angle should
be to handle crisis for solving not complicating.
4. Indian politics, do not take it to your ego and act only when pushed by your
opposition gang members.

This situation has been a collection of mistakes and ridicolous positions from both italian and indian side. As italian, I can surely say that italians have generally a good opinion of indian people. Very likely, indians do the same with italians. Now, an accident has happened and two innocent persons have been killed. The italian Government should have assured indian authorities that a fair and serious process would have taken place in Italy, or maybe in front of some international court, and indians should have allowed two soldiers to get back to Italy. Insisting in this way is just ridicolous. Everybody in India knows already that the two italians will be sent back to Italy. In fact, if they would be subjected to death raw, this would probably mean war, which I think India surely does not want neither Italy. Just stop behaving like kids.

This is a welcome initiative by The Hindu and La Republica.

I am not aware of many of the crucial facts of the case, such as: Was
the ship on Indian or international waters, can this be verified with
a GPS signal, and what are the implications as per Indian and
international laws. However, I do believe that every country must live
up to promises it gives to another country. Hence, I'm glad to know
that Italy has decided to return the marines.

I can understand that the threat from pirates is genuine in these
oceans. However, it is not acceptable to say that marines who believe
themselves to be threatened, can shoot at will, in this part of the
Indian ocean. This is because there are likely to be many fishing
boats without sophisticated radios, or even a loudspeaker, onboard. So
how would they communicate with these ships? The solution is to
establish clear shipping/fishing zones. Clearly, a failing on the part
of the Indian government.

I strongly condemn the Indian position and attitude in this dispute.
Clearly the Flag State has the jurisdiction to try the case and not
India. Section 4 of IPC does not bestow any jurisdiction on Indian
courts simply because the ship is not registered in India but bears an
Italian flag. Nobody seems to have enquired whether the intrusion of
the fishermen's boat St. Antony into contiguous zone was legal since
Harish Salve is on record saying fishing boats cannot travel beyond 12
nautical miles. The fishermen's venture may be due to their greed for
over-catch of fish or may be due to other illegal purposes even, who
knows? So, it is not improbable that the Italian marines mistook them
for pirates etc. Anyway, the matter has to be decided by a court of
international jurisdiction and not India, perhaps not even Italy. Let
both the countries approach International Court of Justice for useful
guidance in this matter.

The resolution of this event is very important to set a precedent. With increasing
piracy close to African coast, more and more merchant ships are passing very close
to Indian west coast, where many poor fishermen eek out subsitence living and
many more mishaps are likely in future. Transparant trial and delivery of justice is
important for both sides. The indian government should immediately enact laws to
close loop holes and stake its legitimate claims over the EEZ. Coast guards should
help steer the big ships, whose destination is not an Indian port to stay out of Indian
Exclusive Economic Zone. If Italy is citing some intrenational laws, based on which,
these marines are to stand trial in Italy it sounds absurd and points lacunae in such
laws rather than submitting to principles of Justice . How can anyone lawfully shoot
(to injure or kill) without ever being attacked first. The marines may after proper
trial be found not guilty but avoiding trial altogether is unimaginable.

No one at the moment has answered to my IMPORTANT question ?

What is the status, under the provisions of the Indian Law, of the two Italian National ? Without an answer that is REAL provided by Indian Law no TRIAL and not Special Court can be set for the case, but eventually and merely, ONLY to decide if a trial must be done in an Indian Court or in an International Court.

Now.....on wich legal grounds was request an affidavit to guarantee the Militaries back in India ?

Please answer..... if Indian lawyers or Judges are reading....i ask to Indian authorities because i have no any trust in the foreign Italian Authorities.

In response to Mr. N. Gupta's post:

Dear sir,

I couldn't have phrased it better.
Your questions are more than reasonable and all must be answered.

I also share, as an Italian citizen, your distrust of our politicians.

On the other hand, here, despite political plotting, there are the
lives of two of our soldiers and citizens at stake.
There have been many irregularities in the course of this
investigation, and only an open minded and reasonably sound attitude
can help solve this.

My opinion is that the situation has become too complicated, but it
should have been dealt with better from the first moment, by both
Governments.

I have a high esteem of India's government and the Indian people as a
whole. India is the cradle of civilization and Indo-European culture,
so I have trust in its people.

With friendly respect,

Alberto Brandi

A good initiative by the world renowned press. This is a simple incident involving simple answers. Two marines from an international Italian cargo ship shot dead two Indian fishermen thinking them as pirates after usual alert. Whether the incident happened in Indian or international waters, two ordinary lives preished shattering their families. When facts are known a regret and compensation is the only way out. Courts should settle this matter and justice rendered in a limited time period without prolonging the matter for decades in the name of democratic process. Now prudence with prevailed, the SC should dispose off the case at the earliest. Eventhough Time is precious and life is more precious, now with fishermen's life gone, we should reckon the value of time and equally the value of life of the two state defense workmen. Long live Indo-Italy amity !

The sea area where the incident took place lies between two land masses belonging to India- West coast of India and Laccadive group of islands. This sea area is having regular crossing passenger vessel traffic including High Speed Crafts from Kochi/Calicut to Island ports of Kaverrati, Androth, Kalpeni etc., This sea close to mainland coast is also used by Kerala,Karnataka and Tamilnadu fishermen for fishing. Of late all over the world it has become a regular feature for merchant ships to sail very close to coast to get mobile phone signals. In my opinion more serious accidents are waiting to happen in this area where passenger vessel traffic is neither managed or controlled. It is high time the Min of shipping Govt of India establishes a sea lane so as to control linear and cross traffic and also indicate the no fishing zone in this shipping lane to the coastal fishermen and avoid further catastrophes.

I am Italian and I was in Chennai last week for a business trip. I
have felt ashamed for the whole week considering the way the Italian
politicians have behaved. I believe the two marines have the rights to
defend themselves in a trial and be prosecuted according to the
international laws that have to be applied to this specific case. I
believe in justice but few stupid Italian politicians made a huge
mess, creating a never seen international diplomatic issue.
Basically they have compromised the image of Italy and the honor and
dignity of the two marines, just to play they own political games.
I would have sent these politicians back to India, instead of the
marines that have been used as puppets.
Sorry India but unfortunately we have an incompetent political class.

The Hindu - Rupublica forum is a good way to start a dialogue for
better understanding between peoples instead of the abuse that goes on
in reader's columns in the usual national forums. The Hindu should do
the same thing with other countries' serious newspapers whenever
conflicts arise on bilateral issues (for example The Dawn, Pakistan).
congratulations and thank you to both papers.

This sorry episode reveals India's woeful defence of its littoral
territory - What would India's reaction be if American forces were
involved in such an incident instead of the Italians? A similar
incident in the Persian Gulf last year evoked hardly a murmer in
India. India needs to calmly think these issues through and the BJP
opposition in India to stop using Italy to browbeat the Congress
Party.

I hope that the international community acts with a very severe censure of BOTH governments INDIAN AND ITALIAN.

India has to expedite the Law procedures and respect the value of time as well as value of justice. Indian habits of red tapism and prolonging investigation shall not be condoned. And then the verdict has to be simply accepted by Italian marines and Italy. Further action from Italy and any other country must be a training to all marines in view of the (to be)identified element of influence that caused the tragedy. Is it alcohol? Is it criminal sadism? Is it racist mind? Is it a human mistake? In any case a lesson learned will have a benefit for the future.

Firstly, although, the initial plan of Italian Government's refusal to
send the marines has drawn considerable criticism and debate, we
should appreciate their decision to send the marines back to India.
Handling the Italian's anger towards their government is not an easy
task.

Secondly, the mental stress and trauma experienced by the marines and
their family back home cannot be expressed in words. Two Indian
fishermen's mistaken identity as pirates left them dead. If they were
really pirates, then it is possible that two life's of marines would
have been lost. But marines spend more than half the year at sea and I
expect them to be trained to differentiate between fishermen and
pirates. If they were not, it is their incapability. Under any
circumstances, they have to stand trial.

a noble move by both the news paper to strengthen the understanding
between the citizen of two nations. this type of interaction at citizen
level will create more tolerance and belief among people.

one thing i want to know why Italian govt. did such act?

Justice stands for revenge same way as love stands for hate.
Charging those italian soldiers like any other criminals won't do any justice to the Indian Goverment, nither to the fishermans families; and it wont't change the hearts of Indian citizen for better. Justice is undestanding, search and identify all-party responsability, and maybe forgiving. Revenge is blind, unilateral, empty and certanly unforgiving.
Justice will fill the souls of Indians with esteem and admiration.
Revenge will drain the soul of everyone.

It's time for Italy to let start the private security industry because it's a shame that members of the armed forces are doing this such of private protection, even being paid with public tax.
India must realise that the elections are done so it doesn't work to keep this two men to harm the relations between Indian parties. Italy has to refound the families if it's true that they shooted in the India territorial waters; if the fishermen were killed in international waters or the bullet were fired from the Greek vessel means the detetenction is illegal and Italy may deploy the G.O.I. Regiment (Italian Navy SEALS) which is trained to rescue hostages oversea, so the Italian governament will expell all the Indian citizens in Italy and vice-versa. This last solution will create many diplomatic and economic problems, in particular to the Italian companies in India.The best solutio is to pay,let them come back and use only civilian contractors. P.S.:Bring back the Marines Regiment to Veneto!

What about the two fishermen who were killed?In Italy the reason for the jailing of the two Italian soldiers appears to be of no importance,it has been brushed under the carpet.What would the Italians do if the shoe was on the other foot?
The Italians have insulted,cursed India because they consider themselves superior. The idea India actually challenging a western nation is to them inconceivable, well Italians, the world has changed Who said that the incident happened in international waters? An imaginary scenario created by the Italian media.India sends two alleged killers home for Christmas and again to vote!!Which country allows alleged murderers to go abroad? None.Don’t get me started on Italian justice. pot calling the kettle black.Shameful.Vergogna.Why should the prisoners being allowed to stay at their ambassador’s residence allowed to roam around Delhi? This is a travesty of justice.They should be locked up and allowed what Indian prisoners are allowed. Nothing more or less.

Hallo everyone,
it really seems that the two countries are managing s worse as possible this deprecable accident.
Indians have no right to arrest and process the two italians soldiers: the accident took place in international seaplace and the ship was an italian one (somebody mantioned some russian, what the hell?); furthermore, they have not yet provide any clear evidence in charge againts our marines.
Italians were no capable to defend their soldiers' rights and let our country lose its honour by adopting a fucking stupid strategy; our foreing affairs officers must be fire immediately, shame on them!!!
It's urgent an Agreement between the two presidents; process has to be made, accordigly to international laws, in our country. Any other solution will be consideres as selling our soldiers for commercial interest. Our people would not forget such a shame.

The Indian ocean is vast and is well known for pirates. Italian
marines, sensing somethign suspicious in Indian ocean, reacted (may be
too aggressively) in freightened manner. Its better to act first than
to wait for their move. Till here all noraml!
But going beyond this step and doing sharp shooting of men in the
fishing boat, an extreme step. No warning shots were fired, no loud
speakers were used to deter fast approaching pirate boat (considering
it was a real marine-pirate engagement). There is alos no records of
any shooting in the ship record book, which needs to be shared every
few hours with their base. THey were not coming back to Indian port to
report of the accident, they were forcibly intercepted and pulled over
to teh Coast by Indian Coast Guards.
Lets not get emotional on these matters and say they were ready to
surrender, that is why they came to Indian coast.
Indian side

I see lot of mixed comments by both Indians an Italians. Some seem to
be very much driven by emotions, some very rational but missing a
couple of important facts. The most interesting ones are by some
Italians who are viewing the whole tragedy in a different light. The
light of mistake, forgiveness, cooperation to solve crisis, good
relations. It is a good initiative because a thorough discussion and
consideration of all the aspects need to be done before reaching
consensus on fate of 2 marines and the destroyed lives of family
members of 2 fishermen.
Starting with the Italian side:
1. The issue has been a mistake, a case of mistaken identify of 2
fishermen in their small fishing boat for pirates. We all know
pirates never strike like this and most importantly they were neither
looking to be friends with the Enrica Lexie or to scare them in any
way. Those people were just doing their job (fishing) , unaware of the
contents of the ship, the precious oil.

Hats off to THE HINDU and La REPUBLICA!!! This is an excellent initiative by both newspapers to let people of INDIA, ITALY and the rest of the world, to understand the sensibilities and feelings of each other without getting biased/aroused by the clamor of vote hungry politicians and sensationalist media.
I wish that this sets a precedent for similar issues involving people of different parts of the world. This would eventually help in reducing international tensions and make the world a better place to live in. Congrats again and wish that this initiative gets international recognition like Nobel peace prize.

1-2.) Were Marines being paid by a private contractor? It think so, yes, paid by private contractors in agreement with our Navy. It has happened too often that our ships ended up in the hands of pirates, who asked for millions of Euro to release ships and personnel. When Italian people are kidnapped abroad it is a tragedy for our whole nation. We all suffer, as a whole nation!! So yes, we do agree with the idea of marines defending our ships from pirates.

4-5-6-7.) The oil-tanker owner is a Russian company --
No, Enrica Lexie is owned by an Italian company based in Naples, Società Armatrice Fratelli D’Amato Spa. This same company owned also the Savina Caylyn’ oil tanker, that already ended up in the hands of somali pirates for 1 long year. We are sick of pirates wanting money from us, capturing our nationals across the globe.

I agree with the proposal by K.J.Haroon Basha. I understand
compensation has already been paid to the fishermen's family by the
Italians. Although money may not bring back the lives lost it was an
honest mistake by the Italians. Given the piracy danger in the water
around the south western shores of India and inability of the
fishermen boat to respond to the Italian vessel I think it is
understandable that the marines made a mistake. I think it is
appropriate to give them a pardon or brief jail term for the time
served and let them go back to their homes.

I've read lot of different comments by indian people and I'm always thinking that if the marines will be found guilty they'll have to be jailed but I also like to know how a country called democratic could accept the capital punishment? Is that what Mahatma Gandhi did teach you?

I'm Italian, but in no case I could justify the murder of innocent people, such as the Kerala's fishermen killed in february 2012. I hope the two Italian marines will be judged by an Indian court and the relations between Italy and India (a country that I visited three years ago and I appreciated very much) will continue as usual.

It was a bad piece of governance and ignorance from Italian side. Italian officially were blisfully unaware of laws which favour foreign prisoner in India. What could have been used to build goodwill,was used to create bad will. Probably officials were not able to do what they wanted to do because of elections in Italy. The issue was given political tone and therefore it could not be pursued honestly. India took tough instance because of impending election next year.

Two innocent people have been killed (probably) by mistake with (probably) some responsibilities of two Italian marines, now a court is called to judge them and to establish the truth.
The wisdom of Mahatma Gandhi introduced a special word Satyagraha (which means "adherence to truth") for encouraging people to eliminate antagonisms without harming the antagonists themselves and to transform or "purify" them to a higher level.
An higher wisdom could suggest us to don't create or involve national antagonisms on this sad episode and let the two marines judged according international laws, at least for two reasons: the event occurred in international waters; an international court can reach the truth more easily than a court conditioned by surrounding pressure.
Let us avoid that injustice be followed by injustice again, Justice and Truth are not just national assets: as well as Mahatma Gandhi belongs to mankind. Indian and Italian people do not deserve to be divided by feelings of revenge.

I would reccomed Italian governament to immediatelly withdraw all remaining naval and terrain force actually being deployed in various mission all over the world in sign of protest towards the silent of all organizations we are part of.
The international community cannot be silent in this moment specially the countries (like Italy) having soldiers in a mission like the one the Italian marines were carrying out at that time.

Apart from a small visa issues there was hardly any incident that threatened the relations between the two countries. The Italian govt. may have decided not to send the marines back because of the political pressure locally, but they rectified that mistake. It is a wise decision because of two reasons. First, it put an end to the marines row, thus preventing any strain to the relations. Second, it was taken swiftly with little time wasted(It would be a diplomatic mess if Italy have taken more time). The Italians did their part, now it is time for us to do our part. The supreme court of India should complete the entire trial as quickly as possible by forming a special court as promised.

Enrica lexie was build in the Zaliv shipbuilding yard, an Ukrainan joint company. They are not the owners of Enrica Lexie, they are only the builders. The owner of Enrica Lexie is an italian private, and so the ship has italian flag.

It's worth to note that Enrica Lexie accepted to go in an indian port only after the ship captain (who legally respond only to the civil ship owner) had received this order by the private owner, because the first issued order, given by Italian Navy, was to "escape" to Africa.

The marines get paid by italian state, and italian state get paid by the oil-tanker owner. According to the last laws concerning sea security it's possible for a private owner "to rent" military forces to protect the cargo, if the cargo sail or arrive in a EU country, and if the cargo is valuable for the nation i.e. petroleum, raw materials, weaponry etc. I don't know about U.S., but I think they also do this kind of things.

Then in my opinion it's a shame that privates can "rent" national forces to defend their own interests. When private interests mix with national defense forces (as they are supposed to be, or as they want us people to believe...) individuals, peace and wellness pay heavy prices...

This is not a case of first degree murder. It can not be proved either that the incident
happened with in the bounds of waters declared as national. In view of the fact that the area
is infested with piracy, it is quite possible that the marines over acted, mistaking the fishing
boat for a pirate one. In the existing circumstances, the Government can agree with Italy for
trying the accused in the International Court of Justice or in alternate, go for a monetary
settlement with the Italian Government for a fair compensation to the bereaved families,
which offer the Italians already had made. In my view the latter alternative will be far better
as it offers to rehabilitate the lives of the bereaved. Any way we should not drag the case but
go for a quick disposal.

I have following questions for the Italian government:

1.) Were Marines being paid by a private contractor to guard the vessel or were they on government duty?

2.) Taxpayers across the world spend millions to prepare a marine to "protect their nation". Pardon my ignorance, but does Italy allow renting of its national marines to private contractors?

4.) The oil-tanker owner is a Russian company: Zaliv (registered in Moscow)

5.)Why were Italian Marines, on board a Russian owned oil tanker?
What kind of monetary compensation did the marines receive from Zaliv- the Russian company and did Italian government agree to rent its national force to the Russian vessel owner?

6.) Did Italian taxpayers knew that their marines were being used by Russian Oil companies to protect Russian corporates?

7.) Why are marines claiming to be Italian defense forces while protecting Russian corporation.

I love Italy, its people, food & history. Not it's politicians!

Good move by the two newspapers. Don't know how Italy is reacting to the marines having to come back. But there is a lot of jingoism in India which is unwarranted.According to reports, shooting took place in international waters, marines had also fired warning shots. The fishermen's families have lost their breadwinners, they need looking after. Italian Govt was prepared to give substantial amounts to the families. Why not settle for financial compensation since the killings were accidental and not premeditated or intentional?

The fishermen were well within the economic zone of India and they were unarmed and were no threat to anyone. Pretending that the Italian marines can shoot anyone in the open sea is a disgrace and people who think that India has no right to protect its citizens need better education.

Two italian soldier who guard a private tanker kill two innocent indian fisherman.

It could be a mistake or a shooting game going wrong, but the fact rest: two innocent people get killed by two soldier who act like private guards to defend the interest of other killer of humankind (oilmen, capitalist, governments and so on).

Last but not least italian government (and the soldiers themselves) give his word to India that the soldiers will return, but they broke their promises and they try to do the "italian job".

Please India teach to my country that this way of doing leeds to nothing. This is a virus that infect Italy.
Now, if the indian court issues a death sentence, they got what they deserve.

The real shame is that the real guilts (politicians, army staff, speculators) will remain clean, as always happen. And, as always in history, poor people have to pay for the power games. Because, in the end, the two soldiers are not really different from the two fishermen and all of us.

When men are killed while working for their families sustenance, it is not going to be a good day for anyone, especially for the men who did kill the unfortunate fishermen.
The first reactions can be for sure horror, disdain, rejection, and suppression.
But history tells that feelings and reactions are not the right way to face problems and reach solutions, civilization is.
Politics, Justice, Information are all aspects of the human process of civilization that should lead to a better, safer, and fairer world to live in.
Nonetheless this process is still ongoing and not all the problems have already been solved.
For this reason I would like to highlight the accountability of the above mentioned institutions and organizations in delivering the service they are meant to do: politics/diplomacy, justice and mass media should pledge their role in solving the problems,
while it is clear they are only increasing confusion and piling up mistakes.
It's a shame for "all" the "civil" "societies".

The two marines and Italian Govt have understood the gravity of the situation, and offered compensation for the lives lost. And that is the best what one can do and expect.Accept the compensation and apology and let the two young men return to their country.

What purpose will be served if a detailed enquiry, hearing all done and finally awarded life imprisonment? Spoil the life of two young soldiers.

Italian navy seals have saved life of indian citizens for the safeguard of shipping trade in the ocean sea, it needs be considered positive by indian authorities that its mission has policing finalities for save guard of citizens victims of pirate Attacks.

Responsibility share
To be integrally blamed, to be entirely legally responsible, and fully liable you need to intent, plan, and deliberately kill.
Facts:
1)Indian Ocean, in the proximity of India territorial waters, has been the theater of quite a few bloody pirates attacks.
2)Many Countries come to a decision to provide their strategic commercial vessel with army defense units.
The responsibility of a soldier accidental shooting, fatal mistake, misfortunate killing, has to be shared with all the parties involved in this terrible event. No one can call him self out.
Nor the soldiers,
Nor the army,
Neither our countries.
These soldiers are not assassins, they are a part of our nation; if the India Court trial judge them guilty; Then all the italians will be guilty as well.
My deepest grief for the fisherman families involved in this unfortunate case; because they are the only, truly, fully innocent people involved.
Deepest respect and consideration to all Indian citizen.

There are a lot of issues in this case, related to the international law, maritime law,
national law and also political and historical factors.
Very hard to summarize them in few lines but that's my opinion :
- both fishermen and soldiers must be considered victims from two different
states : Italy and India.
Fishermen they were killed without any justifiable reasons, and the rules of
engagement are very clear and strict in this sense. So, since soldiers as planes
represent the state they join to, the state is guilty in this crime.
By contrast, the way within which india is playing with national and international
law demonstrates a disproportionate way to act. Create tribunals ex novo, not
admitting italian expert to the ballistic exam, not even translating the judgement
in the italian or english language is a clear proof of non objective judgement.
That's way these soldiers are victims again.
- Moreover,postcolonial theories showed very well the role of Identity and the Law
in this

Firstly it is admirable that the press of both countries have taken the initiative to open such a forum.

Secondly italians should be made to feel that Indian Laws are are as noble and supreme as the italian laws or EU laws and in no way less responsible.

Thirdly as many have stated the indian judicial system has given plenty of leeway and benefit of doubt by letting them visit families and vote back in their country. So nothing should worry anyone.

Fourthly, for any political parties in India or Italy to make it a natiolistic issue, is naive and unbecoming.

Fifthly, the citizens of both countries should move on, forget the tranit hiccup in relations and forge a united feature.

This forum is a breath of fresh air in this era of tabloid journalism and online vitriol.

The situation with the marines was mishandled by the Indian government from the beginning. The men should not have received the various privileges they were given. What they should have got was a quick trial. (Then again, Indian defendants often have to wait much longer for their trials.) Likewise, the Italian government's attempt to keep the men after promising to send them back was clumsy and stupid. (Two countries, both famous for inefficiency...) Since the fishermen's families have received compensation, the marines should now be given a token sentence (maybe one year in prison) and sent home.

More important than giving them a stiff punishment is making sure that these kinds of shootings do not happen again. For that, a clear set of rules of engagement should be drawn up, fishermen should be taught how to avoid unnecessary risks, and armed guards on ships should be trained carefully

I respect the Indian friends, a strong people and a lover of justice. From Italian I believe in guilt in our military, but you can not disregard the fact that the incident has taken place in international waters. The jurisdiction so it must be Italian, according to international treaties. And you also need to understand that allowing our soldiers to be tried and convicted in India is a serious matter for the reputation of the armed forces. What guarantees from Italy to his soldiers if he can not prevent them from being judged out of their nation? However, I do not ask the Indians to justify but to put yourself in our shoes, those of a nation in decline not only economic but also of international prestige in front of a bad situation. I can not fail, however, to ask as an Italian, forgiveness for the death of the fishermen. Of primary importance is to be given justice and satisfaction to their families though it is never enough in front of the death of a loved one.

I'm perfectly agree with VenkataGovindasmay he read in my mind.
Is a very complex case and all must be calm.
I think that other things, maybe, try to influences this case.
The strange diplomatic behaviour of my country, Italy, can be conditioned from others "affairs" happened between our countries in the meanwhile.
So the best thing to do is to stay calm and submit the trial to ICJ.

There's too much national pride involved in this case from both
countries. It'll be a shame for Italy to see its marines tried in
Indian court for murder and disturbing in case they sentenced to serve
jail term. The Indian ego comes from a mindset of resurgent India
aspiring to be a superpower and hence we will punish those who kill
any Indian. Had this case taken 20 years back Italians would have
easily slipped away without all this hue and cry. I think It's a
little opportunistic of the families of victims to take the money from
Italians and yet ask for justice but they know better that no one in
India is going to take care of them. Its too early to judge who is at
fault but it seems clear to be a case of mistaken Identity. I hope the
judge also takes care of national pride of both nations and gives a
verdict that both countries are able to accept with grace.

The Vienna Convention (which India has signed) establishes that the crimes of the soldiers to be tried by their country of origin. Why dont respect their obligations?

Excellent idea to create this space of communication between those Indians and Italians that are wishing for getting soon back our friendship, trust and sympathy. Even if they were international waters, it is not ruled out that India has jurisdiction. It was an Indian fisherman vessel after all. At this stage I think that search for truth should have more space. Was it really an accident? Were the Rules of Engagement respected? who gave the order to shoot? If the soldiers were brought back to Italy, would they really be persecuted? Why did the soldiers disembark the italian ship once in Kerela? Would it be so emotional for Indians if Sonia was not of Italian origins? One thing is clear Italy will lose in all cases. Minister Terzi has such a big responsibility for the latest events that should be held responsible.

President Napolitano refused to meet with Social Democratic candidate
Steinbrueck after what he said about Grillo and Silvio Berlusconi
(rightly so, in my opinion) but had no qualms meeting two under
trials accused of killing two Indian fishermen. What next? Could we
now look forward to when they will be awarded the 'Cavaliere di Gran
Croce dell'Ordine militare d'Italia' and driven around Rome in an
open top bus with crowds cheering? Very obscene, I must say. It is
one thing to take care of your citizens and another thing altogether
to be treating them like decorated war heroes. Why were they given an
audience with the president? Question for another day, who is
advising the president? Even if the meeting with the president was
deemed necessary, was a photo-op really necessary? And even if a
photo-op is the norm on occasions such as this, was it prudent to
release the photos to the media? Some sensitivity and common sense
would go a long way, I think.

Atul Bhaskar you have all my respect. What you have written is correct ! The biggest mistake of our Embassy has been to file the affidavit on behalf of govt of Italy .....what procedure is this ?! If till now it is not defined the status of the two Italians navy militaries, how is possible to guarantee entry, departure and also stay in India ?! And more over entry, departure and stay of navy militaries or civilian ? Coming from a friendly country or coming from a country as defined under the "Foreigners act 1946", orders and amendments ?
What did he wrote in his affidavit the ambassador ? Which laws, directives, rules, mentioned in it ?

I am shocked.

I feel really keen to promote dialogue, including through an instrument such as a forum
between the Indian people and the Italian one. the crux of the question 'whether the fact
'occurred in international waters. so the best solution and reasonable 'to entrust the decision
of an international court to evaluate the case regardless of a political and diplomatic war. this
would be the most desirable considering the deplorable behavior of both governments, which
are probably related to a different interest, only economic, erose tris case is only a 'specchio
per le allodole' 'mirror for larks'.

Hi. My name is Peter Parisius and I'm from Italy. I've always been a great fan of life, history and culture of India, but it's evident that these last decades have brought a deterioration of Indian moral and costumes. That's a pity. Anyway I'm optimist: India has strenght and energy enough to re-live to the old splendor!
Corcerning these two Italian marines: if they are guilty, they must pay. But not with their death. India should respect the laws of the civilized world and abolish the death penalty.
Thank you for your attention.

Kudos to both newspapers for to have brought about a forum to flow of opinions from readers.Firstly this is a complex legal case that involves a crime in which the perpetrators and victims are different nationalities while the place of crime was on international waters. Secondly it has to be established still whether Indian Court has jurisdiction or Italian or the trial should be at ICJ (International Court of Justice).It would be wise for anyone to stay calm while the matter is subjudice and watch the legal course with patience.People of both the republics believe in Justice delivery system.It would be preposterous on the part of both nations to negotiate as regards the penalty (Inia's assurance of no death penalty to marines) even before the confirmation of jurisdiction.It should not be perceived as a piece of revenge seeking opinion however in the event of affirmation of jurisdiction of Indian in this case.Conduct of trial and consequent penalty should be as provided by penal code.

I do not know the facts so I can not talk about them. However, I can
appreciate this initiative of the two newspapers and hope that the
situation will be resolved soon in the best way for both parties

First I'd like to acknowledge the delay caused by the GoI to form a
special court to hear the case involving the two marines. The SC of
India had in fact gone on extra mile to leave a window to determine if
the present case can be at all decided in India. And since there was a
delay in opening the case in special court, the highest court in India
allowed the marines to go to Italy. This may not be correct procedure
to follow in a normal case, but, since it is an extraordinary case
that happened in extraordinary situation, the Supreme Court allowed
them to go.
Second most important event that happened was the affidavit filed by
the ambassador of Italy on behalf Govt. of Italy. Which they forgot
when they announced their intention of not sending the marines back.
An ambassador deposing before the highest court of the host country
cannot lie in front of it and claim diplomatic immunity. The precedent
set by Italy was unprecedented in diplomatic missions and should have
been avoided!

There is no doubt that there was a crime, that the two italians are responsible and
that the Indian people and especially the families of the victims need justice. On the other hand, those who want justice should accept the laws: the crime was committed outside India and it is forbidden by the Italian law, to send criminals to countries where they could be convicted to death. I think India should leave the marines to an international court and the UN should guarantee a faithful and respectful process that could reveal all responsibilities (including those of the head quarters). There is a previous, unfortunate, case: two US army pilots while flying in a forbidden area in Italy destroyed a cable railway killing 30 people. They were claimed back by US and acquitted after a ridiculous trial. This should not happen to India. At the same time, international laws hold for crimes in none-land and Italy deserves that international laws be respected in this case too.

It seems to me that all the events connected to this case suggest the
necessity to resort to an international court to reach a fair and honest
judgement. From what we read in newspapers neither government is above
contempt, and therefore the risks of an unfair trial are very high.
The two communities have grown so far apart and the tensions have risen
so much that it is hard not to recall the extraordinary pages about the
trial in E.M. Forster's Passage to India.

This seems to be a special forum for Italians who wish to complain about
slowness and lack of transparency in other countries' legal systems. A
very interesting initiative!

In the past 40 years Italy had been a balance centre for many
multilateral treaties of peace and trade among the countries. More
than once Italy had been accused to be remissive or even weak in
putting on the display its own interest (it happened several times
with US military killers such as Cortinia massacre and the homicide of
Giuliano Calipari in Iraq).
Hence, the strategy of our minister comes as unusual and self-
damaging. The exploitation of Indian permission had been deceptive and
I personally do not understand it. The reason which led the government
(which is a technical government, remember) to put under stress the
two countries relationships is trivial: the defence of two killers.
However, even if I very well understand India's outrage, I can't deny
that the suspension of our ambassador's immunity sounds extremely
intimidating. Even during WW2 countries were extremely prudent in
limiting diplomatic rights.
In a nutshell, I feel sorry and ashamed for our government behaviour

Are we using different yardstick here? Many elites are voicing their
support to actor Sanjay Dutt, who was convicted for possessing weapons
illegally. On the other hand we are demanding severe punishment to
marines, who have admitted to killing Indian fishermen mistaking them
for pirates, even after the families getting hefty compensation.

The two Marines should be given pardon and set free. Let us show our magnanimity and win the hearts of people around the world. They did not kill the two fishermen wantonly but by mistake. It was the intention that matters here, the Marines did not want to kill the fishermen but it was pure an accident.

I'm a sailor by profession and frequently transit piracy hit waters.
At the time, the area where the shooting occurred was known, well
known by any experienced navigator to be an area with an almost nil
risk of attacks. The Master of the vessel has to have known this fact.
I read somewhere that the marines claimed to have established that the
fishermen were armed. This is of course, a complete fabrication. They
also discharged around 28 rounds of ammunition at this fishing boat,
WITHOUT having been fired upon.
I'm offended by the way these two irresponsible men who lack competence and respect for life, have been treated by Indian authorities. I'm a 100% sure that an equivalent Indian criminal in Italy would not be given special meals, daily meetings, christmas holidays and voting holidays. Even Indian criminals aren't given this special treatment in India. Why give it to them?

I regret that such misunderstanding happened among two countries that usually have great
relationship and great interest to continue so.
I can understand that the decision made by Italian government, to hold the two marines in Italy, was so unexpected and so negative for Indians. But I can say that also the Indian court behavior was felt by Italians as controversial and negative. Too long time was spent to take a decision that it was suspected that it was made inappropriately and against a fair trial.
Moreover I thing that also Indian authority had made a wrong action at the event time when the ship was invited to Indian port with a trick and then the two marines arrested against the international rules about the international waters. No similar reaction was made at that time from Italians for a betrayal. Anyway, now, the best solution is that Indian court quickly recognizes that the event occurred in international water. It is the only firm fact that can be acquired. So, at the two marines must be recognized the right to be processed in their country. Infact they will not be freed completely. They will be processed anyway. I’m also agreeing that the two governments should compensate the families appropriately and immediately. The end of the process will dictate the right treatment deserved at the marines and who must, in the end, really compensate the families.

Never politicians must interfere in the Judiciary System. Not in Italy not in India. I have proposed some questions, that are very important for the solution of this case. A solution, at this stage can only be reach in competent Court in India.
First again the questions :
the presence in India of our two navy militaries, as well as the entry and exit India, how has been handled by the Government of India in terms of visas or permits? Were they managed under the "foreigner act 1946" and related amendments and orders? Which permits have been issued to the two navy militaries ? what is their status in "staying" in India?
These questions are very important to define the status of the two italian nationall, cannot be alien enemy....agree ?
Then :
Why legal offices of the Italian Embassy and/or Consulate has not done and deposited the right application to the right Court to solve easy, fast and right this sad and absurde case ? Did they have the necessary aknowledgment ?

India and Italy have always had friendly relations .To my experience,majority of Italians are
warm-hearted people, generous and guest-friendly. I myself experienced the best side of the Italian human nature during my student days in Milan in the 70s. There are many thousands of Indians working in today's Italy too and I believe most of the Italians treat them well. We have also mutual economic, commercial relations beneficial to both . Another aspect is tourism including Indian Christians need to visit Vatican etc. Let us keep our friendly relations
in future too that are good for both in a developing world !

I think that Italy should apologize for the behaviour of its Foreign
Minister, and India should apologize for not having been able, after
more than one year, to start a regular trial.

I cannot praise highly enough this brilliant initiative by the Hindu and La Repubblica, a forum which allows Indians and Italians to come together and directly discuss this issue with one another, getting past the rage, irrationality, and mutual incomprehension that naturally result from linguistic and geographic division in a situation like this. This is a victory for reason, objectivity, and goodwill that transcends national boundaries, and shows that the Hindu and La Repubblica are leaders indeed. I am really inspired. It is this better spirit of humankind that is going to save the world from violence and hate, if anything can.

Now that Italy has done the right thing, India must move expeditiously and set up
the special court ordered by the Supreme Court. As directed by the Supreme Court, the special court must quickly decide if Indian courts have jurisdiction. If so, it should complete the trial quickly. If not, it should quickly return the marines for trial in Italy.
This is an important case affecting the relations between India and a friendly country and between the people of the two countries. We should not be seen to be
vindictive and we should not drag things out. If we dont have jurisdiction, we should admit it without worrying about the fallout in terms of public opinion in India. Ultimately, our standing in the world depends on how we conduct ourselves in such delicate situations. We should be fair and upright, no matter what the consequences in terms of public opinion. I'm sure the Indian judiciary will do the right thing.

PULSE OF INDIA: MAY TRUTH, VIRTUE, WISDOM AND WISER COUNSEL PREVAIL! Since the time the murder trial involving two Italian sailors turned into a controversial issue, there have been many exchanges between the Italian and Indian governments, at times like a fiery pitch battle between two opposing forces! But what the public in both the countries have been subject to has all along been lack of transparency on part of both the governments! Even now, after the return of sailors back to India to continue with the trial, both the governments are engaged in claiming victory in their own interpretations but without clearly stating publicly what made them to call it a day and get on with business as usual!

It is the wisdom /assertiveness of the Indian judiciary that has won and not the ' Diplomacy ' ;
but the professional diplomats , headed by their minister are trying to steal the show. Had the SC not ruled that the ambassador should not leave India, the marines / the alleged killers would not have returned.

The right wing in both India and Italy should calm down and allow the law to take it's
course.The honourable people in both countries should never let the right wing dictate things
to us.India and Italy are eternal friends.We will overcome this together.

Take the opportunity for an international Court outside Italy and India.

I commend this pro active step taken by The Hindu to air the views of
both the parties. Nice piece of journalism. Thanks.

Let the two navy marines go. The longer it takes the more the embarassment in front of the world. On April 22 Blackmail wins the return of the 2 marines.

The Indian judiciary takes pride in even giving a fair hearing to the
man who killed 160 innocent people in one of the most gruesome act of
terrorism. Italian marines did kill two Indian fishermen;in Indian or
international waters is a matter of debate. Italy blatantly lied to the
Supreme court of India, the highest level of judiciary in the country.
They should have kept faith in an institution that is trusted by more
than 1 billion people.

From the way I see the things, it seem that all this issue is not for the fisherman itself, but just for the honor and in order to demostrate country power, if the fisherman would be killed by an Indu Indian, nobody would care about. Also they were in the international see, there is not jurisdiction for India but just the AIA Court has jurisdiction. Last thing is they did not kill the fishermen because there were enjoing killing, but because they were thinking that the fisherman were pirats.
I would really to see these two guy free, because it seem to me that they are more in a Political issue rather than in a fair situation.

Hi there, i'm Michele an Italian student of Medicine in Hungary.
This comment will not be directly regarding the case, i'd rather put a
remark of unfairness...
To go back home generally my flight ticket costs me 150 euros, during the Political elections of 2012-2013 of my home country, as many other italians living abroad, i've been denied to vote from Hungary and i had to come back home to vote.
Now i don't want to bring up a polemic about it, but i would like people to aknowledge few important points:
1- ME: in order to get advantage of my "HUMAN RIGHTS" i had to pay from my father pockets my ticket to come back home... and naturally skipping all my classes and practices of my curriculum of studies on the monday of elections.
THE ASSASSINS: got a ticket back home payed by the state and had a month vacation with their family...
2- ME: My absence from the courses in Hungary did affect my studies, at which i had to repair with letters and meetings.
THE ASSASSINS: didnt even respect it.

I think, first of all, we need to know. Know the facts, all the facts,
and international rules. Without them we can not live in a civilized
manner (only for example, years ago a U.S. army aircraft struck a
cableway in Italy, causing 20 deaths, and the pilot was judged in the
United States).
So, this forum seems like a good start, especially if accompanied by a
series of objective and comprehensive articles on the events.
Credo che anzitutto sia necessario conoscere. Conoscere i fatti, tutti
i fatti, e le regole internazionali. Senza di queste non è possibile
convivere in modo civile (solo per fare un esempio, anni fa un aereo
USA abbatté una funivia in Italia, provocando 20 morti e il pilota fu
processato negli Stati Uniti).
Dunque, questo forum mi sembra un buon inizio, soprattutto se
affiancato da una serie di articoli obiettivi e completi sugli
avvenimenti.

A very good initiative by The Hindu! After weeks of bashing by
citizens of both the nations, this should be an excellent platform to
put forward and discuss each and every aspect of this case starting
from the mindset of the Italian marines, fishermen's location in the
sea and diplomatic consequences in a mutually acceptable manner and
with respect for our fellow humans. The incident happened was very
unfortunate however blame game is not going to help anyone.
Let me start with the one perspective:
Our fishermen's knowledge about the ocean and the fishing resource is
very limited. To be frank, many fishermen do cross the maritime
boundary in search of rich fishing grounds without understanding the
political significance of the location. This does creates confusion.
Today we have our own satellites to locate fishing grounds. The indian
government must yse these satellite data to help these fishermen so
that they fish within our boundaries and avoid unfortunate incidents.

Today I'm really happy. I do believe that a promise should be a promise
wherever in the world!

Hallo to all indian and international readers. My name's Carmine and I live in Italy.
India and Italy are two respectable and wise contries. Well known for their history and cultural heritage.
So I'm confident that they will be able, together, to find a common and mutual satisfactory solution to this unfortunate and sad case. Unfortunate because our two soldiers did not intentionally shoot to kill but only to protect a ship that was in an area where also sea pirates can be found.
Sad because two innocent men remain killed during the shooting. And this is especially sad for their families.
Italian authorities did all they can to understand the grieving of the fishermen's families and also a money compensation was given in short time.
But that's not the point. Italy and India must go ahead knowing, especially indian authorities, that such situations may well happen in every area of the seas, so be ready to accept international law as primary resource for solving controversies.

Italy's decision to overturn it's earlier decision of not sending Marines back to India should settle some nerves in the diplomatic circles- both in India and in Italy. All Indian politicians who had strong words against Italy's earlier decision should speak in the same earnest now to ensure a speedy judicial process.

The Italian point of view is very simple, the accident occurred in the
ocean range considered "contiguous", Outside the Indian Territory and
international space. I dont know and i dont wanna discuss if our marines
are guilty of murder or not, but only that the accident cannot be
processed in Indian Territory. From my point of view should be an
international commission to have the right to processing the military.

I am sure the promise to Italy will be easily kept by India. The act of the marines does not attract death penalty. It is not all a 'rarest of rare cases'. It is what Americans call 'manslaughter' not 'murder'.

Wonderful effort! Simply brilliant!! India and Rome (read Italy)
have been interacting for trade and commerce for two millennium
and this tragic incident should not ruin whats been built.

This is a very good idea. There are laws, rules, regulations, and processes that often
delay the delivery of justice in India. I have heard complaints that one of the reasons
that Italy refused to send the marines was because of such undue delays. IMHO,
refusing to send the marines was a stupid decision since it inserts national pride into the equation and biases the decision making process going forward - they should
have hired a PR firm and used the media to highlight the issue instead - but given
the political turmoil in Italy today, there is probably no one at the top levels to think through these issues in Italy ...

This decision raises more questions than it answers.
Dear Supreme Court,
1. When will you have normal functioning courts (not fast-track courts) for Indians? Sanjay Dutt showed extraordinary patience waiting for 20 years for his verdict, but most of today's Indians aren't so patient.
2. If India is not going to press the death penalty for the Italians, when will we see the abolition of death penalty for Indians?
What is good for the geese is good for the gander. You need to start
treating ordinary citizens of India with the same respect with which
they treat you.

I'm an italian woman, My escuses for the behaviour of my governement: the words are important

How long does it take to the Indian judicial system to start a trial
against the two Italian navy officers? Over a year has passed from the
facts and here we are, still waiting for a move from India...

By getting the marines returned to India for prosecution our country has
again shown to the world that we have the ability to be in the UNSC
permanent group members.Initially defying the SC orders and then sending
them back shows Italy may be fearful of getting the billions of dollars
in defense deals in stake.Our government has done a commendable job and
it was more in interest of Italy with its credit rating being reduced
substantially not to diminish the diplomatic relations with one for the
fastest emerging economies of the world.

I think the main problem in this whole affair were Italian and Indian
politicians who thought more in political strategies to human lives as
fishermen killed. I think this story has been used at all levels.
I also think that it would take more moderation on both sides until it
is established the truth. Anyway, I want to say that I deeply love the
Indians and that will not break the mutual respect.

I read about this forum on La Repubblica and as a responsible Indian, I have come here.
The fact is that the Italian marines committed a crime in India by killing the two fishermen. I believe the main reason why it happened was because our fishermen do not mark their fishing nets and the two Italians were jumpy, got excited and killed the two unfortunate men.
However Italians must note that Indians do not take kindly to our Supreme Court being sullied in the mud. These two Italians were given VIP treatment compared to most undertrials in India and for them to treat the Indian Supreme Court as dirt is reprehensible.
I will also blame the Indian Supreme Court. Who allows an ambassador covered under the Vienna Convention to post bail? Is your knowledge of law worse than mine? Moreover I hope that since you most probably are going to have a fast-track court for these marines, you will provide the same fast-track courts for ordinary Indians.

Hello Everybody,
the presence in India of our two navy militaries, as well as the entry and exit India, how has been handled by the Government of India in terms of visas or permits? Were they managed under the "foreigner act 1946" and related amendments and orders? Which permits have been issued to the two navy militaries ? what is their status in "staying" in India?

Italy has a strong case with regards to the shooting incident, as has
been mentioned by noted lawyer Harish Salve on various programs. But
the manner in which Italy refused to send back the marines certainly
was a very wrong decision and gave a wrong 'signal' to Indians that the
marines had indeed done something wrong. Since the marines have
returned now, the special court should be setup soon, and the law
should be allowed to take its own course. It also should be kept in
mind that marines were supposed to protect the ship and mistook the
fishermen as pirates. The human aspects of two families suffering in
both countries should also be given due consideration. One simple way
to diffuse passions (on both sides) would be to in each other's foot.
It may help better to understand the difference in opinion and
perspectives. Another way will be to look through political atmosphere
- elections in Kerala and Italy during the period of the incident,
which also influenced the decision making.

Thanks to Hindu and La Republicca for this platform. Indian judicial system has its own shortcomings, but that should not apprehend any Italian and for that matter the Marines involved in this case. India gave a fair trial to Kasab, a terrorist who was caught red-handed during the killing of innocent 'Indians'.
If the marines did what they claim and substantiate that with the right circumstantial evidences, then it wont be long before they are free. But everybody knows that the ship the marines were would be highly sophisticated and would have all the logs which could help or can be used against the Marines.
All that said, the Indian Judicial System's motto is 'Truth Always Triumphs' and I believe every care would be taken to not punish any innocent soul.

It would be great if Italian gov can come forward and compensate to the family members of the deceased without any further delay, if it's already not taken care.

I think the basic moral in India is that if a crime has been committed
than justice should be done. Hence we just want an unbiased investigation of crime(not driven by media) and if the accused are proven guilty then appropriate punitive action against them.I think nothing is wrong in it. Also since Italy is a democratic nation itself which promotes Rule of Law, hence should not be differing from this instead be supportive of it.

My name is Mario. Since 1999 I've been deeply in love with India. I
graduated and got a Phd in Indian Studies, Indian religions and History.
I know Sanskrit, some Hindi. I went to India, I really appreciated and
loved Indian people during my journey. Italy is not only corruption and
unreliability. Our government has made many mistakes in this case.
Nevertheless, the relashionship between our two countries and cultures
cannot be such a disaster. My link to India won't never change.

I find the initiave of the Hindu and la Repubblica very very nice and appreciate that two main newspapers share information.
I am Italian, proud to be... but I am also Indian, proud to be.
Italy and India has so much in common...this episode is so sad and I hope a solution will be found.

I think the law should take its own course , but as the saying goes that justice delayed is justice denied and more so when its a matter of foriegn national.So as demanded by the italians there should be speedy trial .Also for no reason justice should be denied to the victims and their family members.

Vivek

Excellent initiative! I am an Indian staying in France & I visit Italy a lot for business purpose. When I read Indian newspapers online it gives only one side of story. Same is the case with Italian media. What happenned was the most unfortunate thing which nobody wanted. This incident has to be thoroughly investigated
& if the Marines are found to be guilty they shall be punnished. The families of the fishermen should get compensation in any case.

Before every consideration I must say that we love India and his culture (Bollywood included), and what happened is horrible for us and the poor fisherman that die. When you think to India here you usually think the word "FRIEND" and now with this thing became a problem. I've on TV or radio seen some reconstruction but nothing about real details that give me the possibility to say that I'm abslutely sure that we Italians are in the right.
So I can only say that I hope that India do not use these two soldiers as way to promote the fact that they are hard (we belive this without dimonstrations), the do not make strange jokes for politicals reasons and elections.
I hope that India will make the right thing giving this guy a judgment under an international court, whith all the guarantee that the situation require, or in the whorst situation with the maximum level of justice that is possibile to use.
I can't belive that Italy & India can't quarrel, We must in common resolve like FRIENDS!

I don't understand one point. The Indian Supreme Court established that the incident took place in international waters i.e contiguous zone which was anyway under international waters. As per The Hindu report Enrica Lexie was carrying Italian flag where as Indian fishermen's boat did not carry any flag. This fact itself says that India has no jurisdiction over the boat (and hence the incident) whereas Italy has on it's ship.

While the fact is this, how could Indian supreme court decide that India in fact, had jurisdiction? There was no doubt that what occurred was criminal on part of the Italian marines. But the problem is, it seems, there is no clear cut international procedures to be followed during such incidents. This paved the way for both the governments to claim and couter-claim jurisdictions. I think this should be addressed in future deliberations on say, UN forums.

It is a very good initiative by both the newspapers and would go a long way in maintaining a better relationship between the states.

The high drama of National Media of two soverign states, started on
the high waters of the Indian Ocean. Before we go ahead and postmortem
the whole issue of justice and diplomatic ties, there is need to
introspect the two marines decision to shoot. I am sure they didnot
fire for game hunting, and if they really did so, then Mr Khurshid
should not go ahead and promise that the case does not falls under the
rarest of the rare case.
What beats the logic of all the top notch beuracrats with long tabs on
there visiting cards, is the simple aspect of Internationl Dispute
Mediation.
Where are all the Diplomatic literary scholars of the country and what
about there influences? EU comes for the rescue of the Marines? Was it necessary?

A nice attempt - As far as I understand - laws of sea are quite
complicated. However, naval guards (or private guards whatever) have
to oblige certain rules - like rules of engagement & following the
chain of command. It may so happen that those guards actually jumped
the guns - (usual for Somalian pirates who are stateless) - without
resorting to these regulations. Since the fishermen were unarmed, they
could not possibly evoke the self defense argument. Also, the ship was
riding high on ballast - so the real threat - from 'aggressive
manoeuvres' materializing to boarding attempts were really slim.
However, we are a democracy - if any pillar of it still functions>somewhat - it is the higher echelons of judiciary (at least for high profile cases). I would like to remind our friends from Italy that our judiciary is really open & they will even consider the question of legitimate jurisdiction!! Let the law of the land take its course, to
establish all the facts over the fictions.

Excellent initiative. Hope it serves the purpose.
My own view is that a crime has been committed. The dispute over whether it took place in International waters or within the Indian exclusive economic zone is a technical one. What needs to be recognized is that a crime has been committed and the accused must stand trial. Whether they are convicted or not depends on the capability of the investigating agencies to provide evidence to the judiciary to act upon.
The Indian judicial system is a tried and tested one. It can surely be trusted to act fairly and in accordance with the legal procedures and doctrines and not give in to the irrational demands being made from several quarters. This is the same judiciary which in the midst of the jingoistic hullabaloo in the aftermath of the terrorist attack on our Parliament ensured a fair trial for all the accused and even acquitted Prof. Gilani. Italy need not worry on this count.

Now that,Italy has responded positively,India should be equally magnanimous and allow Italy to handle the case in its soil.After all,every one knows that the shooting was not intentional and the marines surrendered after the incident.Also,the family of the victims have been compensated.Any further remedial measures can be discussed and agreed upon.By acting revengefully,one can not bring back the lost souls or bring solace to the families of the victims.

At last, SANITY prevails ! A lot of differences can be ironed out via discussions and
debates, with understanding, tolerance & mutual respect. I am happy Italy has
chosen this peaceful path for solving this difficult but solvable issue. Kudos to the Supreme Court of India for putting their foot down. I did not expect this at all but
they did it in their own dignified way. My hats off to the Supreme Court judges and
the Italian government.